Rethinking How We Teach Science : Dr. Bryan Dewsbury

In this episode, I interviewed Dr. Bryan Dewsbury, an Associate Professor of Biology at Florida International University (FIU).

Per the Howard Hughes Medical Institute (HHMI): He is the Principal Investigator of the Science Education And Society (SEAS) research program, which blends research on the social context of teaching and learning, faculty development of inclusive practices, and programming in the cultivation of equity in education. He is an Associate Director of the STEM Transformational Institute where he directs the Division of Transformative Education. He is also a Fellow with the John N. Gardner Institute where he assists institutions of higher education cultivate best practices in inclusive education. Dewsbury grew up in Trinidad and Tobago and immigrated to the United States in 1999. He received a BS in biology from Morehouse College and an MS and PhD in biology from FIU.

Transcription

Transcribed by Mika O’Shea (she/her)

JP Flores: And I think you’re familiar with how these go right. If you say anything, I can edit them out as well. So I usually start my interviews off with a short autobiography. So would you mind telling me your name, educational journey, where you are now, and what you’ve been up to?

Bryan Dewsbury: Sure. My name is Brian Dewsbury. My educational journey is Nonlinear. I’m currently an associate professor of biology at at Florida International University. My lab focuses on questions around science, education, around institutional design, curriculum, design, social justice and education and things like that. I was trained in 3 degrees, in basic biology and marine ecology at the PhD level in particular. And my efforts and love had switched to science education during the PhD, which is what led to this current journey. My lab is a diverse lab in terms of what we do. We do a lot of research. We write a lot about ways in which education can be a more thriving space. But we also do a lot of communication work. We have our own podcast like you, JP, right?

JP Flores: Yeah, you can plug it if you want, what is the podcast?

Bryan Dewsbury: It’s called Knowledge and Bound, knowledge and bound dot transistor dot FM, and it’s an interview podcast where we talk to people who do transformative work in STEM education. I also do a lot of faculty development around equity based teaching and speeches along those lines and things like that.

JP Flores: Awesome. Well, would you mind painting a picture of who you are outside of, like who you are in lab like? How did you grow up? How’d you get interested in marine biology? And you know what really sparked that interest in stem education.

Bryan Dewsbury: Yeah, I I think the temptation would be to think that because I grew up on an island, that’s why I like marine biology, and that that would not be the case right? I mean, I did, I did grow up liking the water and going to the beach, and things like that right? But I always had a love of conservation. I don’t know why I did. I just did. I was the kid who brought the worms in the house, and took care of the fish in school and all of that stuff. And you know that- you know one thing sort of built on each other, and when I was leaving Trinidad you know, in fact, one of the reasons I left Trinidad for college is because I wanted a degree that focused on conservation and the university at home was- the degrees were a lot more generic. And I didn’t see an opportunity for me to get this special training that I think I wanted or needed. Not to mention that the school I ended up attending, Morehouse College, gave me a full scholarship tuition, room and board, which it’s kinda hard to say no to free right? And one of the things that I was advised to do by my advi- undergrad mentor then, which was really, really good advice is A: do summer internships right? That’s the first part of the good advice. So B: each internship was different. Right? So one summer I did wet lab work with […], and, you know, comparing like sexual selection and stuff like that. Second summer, I worked with a construction/consulting company that did environmental permitting. So I got to see that side of environmental work. And then the third summer I worked at the Smithsonian Environmental Research Center in Edgewater, Maryland catching blue crabs and tagging them and kind of learning about monitoring and things like that in 120 degree Maryland summers. Those horse flies are no joke, man, anyways. And well, yeah, in spite of everything I just said 3 seconds ago, that’s the thing that made me say, oh, I wanna do marine work, right? So I think, based on that I wanted to, I applied to programs that that you know it was marine ecology. And, in fact, another thing my advisor had suggested was hey, you know, like, if you want to do conservation, you need to understand how the environment works. You need to know what you’re conserving and why and how you approach that. So that’s why the choice of grad school was made and not just grad school, but the particular programs that I looked at. I had a great time, I mean Florida, South Florida is not a bad place to do marine work. It really isn’t. I learned a lot. I learned to dive. I did a lot of diving. You know, I think the goal in terms of understanding how the environment works and not just the environment in terms of the, you know, plants and the animals and things like that. But people right? And it’s relationships to, you know, to where you live and and what you extract from the environment, what you put back in the environment, good, bad, and in between. Like all of those things, I think it it- grad school was a really good- the path that I chose was a good place to understand our relationship. I can’t remember. Did you ask me about science education, or no?

JP Flores: Yeah, like, how did you even get into that cause you had such a inclination towards marine? But now you’re running a lab about science and society?

Bryan Dewsbury: Right. So the answer is completely by accident. And it was a happy accident, a accident that I’ll be forever grateful for. I was actually advised to avoid teaching when I was in grad school. Like I was told explicitly like this is a waste of time, you know, if you need to TA, because you know, you know, in science grad school, you get an assistance ship of some sort right? And the TA was considered the bottom of the barrel in terms of well, okay, if you have to have it right, if that’s what you need to stay, then then fine. But nobody was really thinking about teaching as a thing that you prepared for, that you got trained for, that you thought deeply about. Part of it was a bit of a function of the time. Right? But yeah, but part of it was a model in higher ed of imprinting right? So everybody went to grad school and got trained by this one individual, and you replicated that one individual, and you became a slightly tangential version of that individual in another school. And the, you know, the algorithm kept going. So I didn’t teach for my masters. And because I did my masters and PhD at the same school. But I did, I taught at the PhD level because and I actually did this on purpose. I taught in the first 2 semesters, because I felt like, you know, let me get it out to the way and you know that way, I can get RAships for the rest of the time. And you know I have to tell you, JP, when I taught that class, as terrible as I knew I was, it was quite a life changing experience, I mean, just, I think maybe the social side of me where I was able to to talk to the students and actually listen and hear them talk about why they’re making the career choices that they were making. Why, you know, most of them were pre-med. You know what that meant, being first-generation American, first-generation college students like, this sort of social aspect of the academic pursuit that often that tends to not be discussed in higher ed. I was privy to that conversation for the first time, right? First time in terms of being a listener, but that was also my story, and I think the truth is up until that point, I never had the words to fully articulate you know my own why and and why, you know why I was kind of making choices and the things I was dealing with psychologically as I was navigating higher ed. And you know, once you sort of put all of that together, you realize that teaching, and education is just so much more than content, is so much more than degrees, so much more than textbooks, so much more than discoveries. Not that any of those things are bad. It’s just, there’s just more that can come out of it for any given individual. But we, we, as in the system, right has to lean into that, right. You have to be, you have to see that, and you have to figure out what else do you need beyond subject matter expertise in order to elevate all of those other things right? And I think that was, that was really the moment right. That was the road to Damascus moment that that said, you know what you get up and you are changed man, right? You can’t you, you’re not gonna go back to things that you did you have to go forth and think differently about the world and your life and your profession, and so that’s and well, here we are.

JP Flores: Yeah, definitely. That’s amazing. Yeah, it’s almost like a coaching and mentoring approach and making sure that that approach is individualized to each student. Right? I played baseball growing up, and that’s something that you know my coaches instilled in me is like you are a player, and these are your strengths. Let’s play to them, and let’s also work on your weaknesses, too. And I feel like I’ve taken that approach to teaching and I would like your help on something. So I’ve been thinking about this a lot, and I’m trying to think of like a brand, not a brand, but like a term for this. I don’t think modern scientists is the right term for this right. But you know, as society evolves, so do scientists. And I’ve been thinking a lot about, you know, how do we educate students in not just science, but making sure they are, you know, understanding how science policy plays into how to do science, how science communication matters when they’re doing science, for example, for talks and stuff. Do you incorporate any of that in your, you know, teaching like, how do we make sure we can make a more complete modern scientist?

Bryan Dewsbury: I do, and I will take your question. I’ll rephrase it in a way I explain it when I introduce intro bio to my students on the first day of class. Right? And my words are this is a course about doing biology. Not about talking about biology, about doing biology. So doing biology involves talking about it. That’s part of what the doing is. But what do scientists do? We write, we communicate, we argue, we collect data, we do math, we interpret data, we get things wrong, a lot. We talk to other scientists. We talk to people who are not scientists. We talk to other disciplines. We talk to large audiences, we talk to small audiences, we talk to our parents. Right? So all of this stuff, we lay it out like this is, this is what you do. If you, if you want to grow up, and whatever, medical scientists, research scientists, national park service scientists. There are skills associated with being this sort of full human. That I want to make sure that when you’re with me you get a taste of as much of it as possible. So I can’t. I can’t do you, it’s a disservice to you if all I do is, show you 25 slides a day and talk to you about it and hope that all that other stuff that is going to be required of you, you’re gonna sort of pick it up somewhere along the way. Maybe in grad school, maybe in a TV show. I don’t know. Right? So your question about do I do it? Why, yes, I do it because it’s required for me in my mind. The only way for me to do what I’m doing well is to do that right. So we do, we fold proteins. We, you know, we calculate osmotic pressures. We do all of that good stuff. But we spend a lot of time on communication, right? And I don’t just mean preparing you to present at a conference. I mean how you talk in your group. You know, there’s an activity where they design a presentation for ninth grade classroom. There’s a presentation where they design a talk for a coffee shop. Right? So all of these things are very carefully done, because, and this is what I’m saying JP, like it has to start with a belief of what is the expectation? I mean, you say, modern scientists, I would say, maybe it’s not a bad term, but I guess I would want to move us towards an expectation of this is what it means to be a scientist. And I’m not saying everybody has to write an OpEd, not everybody has to be able to be on TV. But, so it needs some of the basics of being able to talk about what you do without using a jargon. Right? I think it’s part of what that is, you know. Understanding yes, it’s good. It’s good to do discoveries, it’s good to have a scientific method, but somebody has to write a bill. Somebody has to pay for this. Somebody has to, you know. Write an RFP, right? Somebody has to make a decision right? And maybe like your p = 0.03 is not enough to like. It doesn’t necessarily just simply translate into: and therefore we believe you, right. So you have to understand all of that. So your point is well taken, and we do try to get a lot of it, even from the beginning of the bio journey.

JP Flores: Yeah, definitely. Yeah, another aspect of academia, right is like a lot of people talk about finding their people, their communities, mentors and things like that. And I I think you’re doing fantastic work at FIU, down there in Florida. But you know that is one institution that can create lots of change. But can you think of anything that you know a lot of institutions should just adopt in general, so that you know this, this model can be at other institutions?

Bryan Dewsbury: Tell me more. So when you say things, things that I should adopt. Are you looking for, you know, here are some best practices, or here’s a torch and some kerosene, and we need to blow this system up?

JP Flores: So that’s the thing I kind of wanted both right. But let’s say you are part of a NASEM panel. Say you’re part of a NASEM panel. What recommendations would you give all these different institutions? But also, like, you can answer this later. If you had to rewrite the system, what would you do differently? Let’s start with the first one, though. The best practices.

Bryan Dewsbury: Well, yeah. Well, well, the first one, the first and the second, I think, are very connected, so I’ll meet, you in the middle because and reason why I asked is because I think sometimes institutions because of the way they’re built and the way bandwidth works. They set themselves up for the, you know, give me 5 things I could do on Monday, kinda. I’m like no, no, no, no! To address the issues that you’re describing, we need to take 10 steps back and actually talk about a more long term plan that has KPIs attached, that has some, some revisiting attached that has a continuous assessment model attached, that has a culture change attached right. And so the first thing I would, I would ask is, let’s actually sit down and and be very clear. And just to use teaching for an example, because that’s the question that you asked, what it is, can we and should we expect out of our biology curriculum? Right? And if it is, we truly say that we value these things like policy and communication, and awareness and social connections and things like that, then it has to be in the curriculum. Then, if it’s in the curriculum, then you have to be somewhat sure, somewhat you have to have some mechanism to know that the people who teach in your curriculum have the skills to teach that, right that they’re not just good chemists, that they’re not just good statisticians or whatever that. Right so and then. So there’s a kind of a subject matter expertise thing around the social stuff, right? But then there’s also the pedagogy itself, right? The classroom approaches, the way people, you know show empathy towards their students, you know opportunities for self-reflection, etc. Etc. So if you have that, then all you have to ask yourself, okay, but do we have a system that incentivizes and rewards and supports that behavior? Right? Is is that expectation reflected in how we hire? Is that expectation reflected in how we promote people, or how we evaluate them, or how we pay them right? So. So you see, like, as you start asking the right questions, you realize you have to go even further than further up the system. If you really want to get the outcomes you want.

JP Flores: Yeah, definitely. Well, have you ever had pushback? In any of the spaces that you’ve been in? And if so, how have you dealt with that pushback?

Bryan Dewsbury: You know. You know I don’t think, not as much as I think people might think I would get. And and maybe partly it’s because I have a very optimistic view even when I do get some pushback, which is honestly very rare. I’m not even, I’m not saying that to be like optimistic. I understand a little bit where it comes from, like I understand that, you know, when the Brians and JPs of the world walk into a room and talk about. You know we should be doing this. We should be doing that. And it’s it’s it’s a shame that communication is not there. Sometimes, without realizing it, what’s being communicated to them, or what they interpret is like, well, are you telling me I’m a bad teacher? Are you telling me that, you know I don’t know what I’m doing? Well, I’ve been doing this for 20 years, and so trying to really put yourself in the shoes of people who might actually be willing to hear a message and maybe open to considering something different, but also want to feel valued. They want to feel like they can be part of the arc that bends in the right direction sort of thing right? So, knowing that, the way I discuss everything I talk to you about, I always come from a place of love like I I I don’t like, and I don’t make this into like, Oh, some faculty are the worst and faculty today and provost today, like, I don’t make these things personal, I, that may exist right. But but to me the thing I’m trying to backward design from is collective change. Right? So in order for that to happen, I have to figure how to bring people in. I have to figure out how to appeal to the better angels right, and in order to do that. I have to mind my language. I have to be very strategic. And I think because of that, I don’t really get large amounts of resistance. And you know I kind of sort of stick. Stick to the facts. Stick to what I know we have evidence for, you know. Talk about these things as not like either you do it this way or you’re wrong. I say, no, let’s do it this way and collect some data and see what happens. Right? Right? And now it now it becomes. I don’t want to use the word experiment, but becomes, it becomes more iterative. Right? Let’s find out. let’s try this, it might have better results. And let’s see when those results come, let’s see what happens, and then have another discussion. Right? So it’s all about approach.

JP Flores: Yeah, yeah, I I’m def- I’m I’m really happy that you brought up the idea of data because in a lot of the spaces I’ve been in. It’s always felt like the same thing when it comes to change right? Oh, let’s make a committee. Let’s have the committee gather data and report back and see if anything changes. And I am not gonna lie. I’m kind of burnt out from that. I do think there’s a time and place for committees. I really do, but I am pretty burnt out. So I decided to take coursework. I’m doing a certificate here at UNC called innovation for the public good. I’ve never experienced anything like these classes. Right? It’s like design thinking, systems thinking, those types of concepts. And again, the idea was to innovate in in spaces of higher education and data is the huge part of that. How have you collected data that’s been so different, you know, that’s been so different from the past? Like, what new innovative ways are you using data to inform these changes that you’re trying to make?

Bryan Dewsbury: Well, a few different things. One, I would say, I wasn’t just interested in data of student performance at the end of the semester. Right? The study we published in 2022 on the impacts of equity-minded teaching tracked the students all the way into their junior year. And because in in terms of learning and in terms of you know, when people are able to you know, be their best selves, the 15 weeks you are allotted for the semester is is kind of artificial, right, like it’s it’s. It’s a construct of how the institution has set up semesters. But that doesn’t necessarily mean, that doesn’t necessarily tie to how the brain might, you know how the brain might put those synapses together, right? And but, because the institution is set up like that, we we bound all of our studies at, you know, at the end of the semester we had 75% pass. And and I, I don’t wanna be dismissive of those studies. But just there’s other bigger data sets, you know, I’m thinking of Rajshetty’s work. I’m thinking of the Gallup Poody port, you know. That has shown that the impacts of some of these higher order things that we care about sometimes takes years and years and years and years to manifest right? So part of what was different was working with the office of institutional research to get that data to figure out like when to, after this class, if you could sort of control for different things, or whatever like, how are they doing in future semesters? And you know, on and after graduation. And this certainly wasn’t you know, Brand use recently didn’t start this movement. But one of the things that I’m seeing now that is very encouraging is a lot of universities are creating offices of institutional effectiveness where they do basically the same thing. Right? They take what was you know, traditional institutional research data. And now, instead of just giving it to the Governor’s office or the accreditation agency. You’re asking questions about the efficiency of your operations, right like. So how are students cracking through? Who’s leaving and why? Which classes are problematic? You know, there are really good ethical values, driven questions to be asked. But you had to have that mindset. Right? So that’s number one, number two. We collect a lot of qualitative data. There’s a lot of reflections in our classrooms like very targeted, you know, deliberately, structural fractions to sort of glean how students are perceiving their navigation of the experience. And those things are telling you things that you don’t typically find from a survey or from an end of semester feedback form. So just one, for example, this comes from our Walter and Cohen papers called Letter to a future first year student. And so they write a reflection at, you know. Write a, it’s a hypothetical future student based on your experience in a course. How would you advise them to navigate this course or the campus in the future? Right? So you’re basically forcing them into a self reflective state about that. I mean, I can go on and on. But those are just sort of 2 ways. Actually, you know what let me. I’m gonna, I want to give you one more. This is a little bit recent, I mean, I’ve always done it, but I’m now starting to maybe talk about it more and write about it is a post semester forensic analysis. That’s what I’m calling it. In that the traditional semester is sort of set up to, you know, you take a final, you add everything up. Every student gets a grade that goes into Ecampus. Everybody moves on and has a merry Christmas right. And there isn’t. There typically isn’t a structured way to talk about how the whole experience went in a way that that positions all of these stakeholders to be equally accountable for the outcome. Right? So certainly you want these students to have put in the effort, and to, you know, have engaged in a class. But also, you know, we have to look in the mirror and say, well, you know, if 85% of the class got question 6 wrong. Was it the class, or was it the question? Or was it how was taught right? And that’s one of several questions you could be asking yourself in a post semester reflection. And the answers to those questions are the things that will, that hopefully, right? You will look at and do differently than in the next iteration. So it’s it’s it’s it’s a slightly, it’s a more comprehensive look at at you know, analysis of the course. And you know you want to do that kind of, definitely before the next time you teach it right. But giving yourself some time once the experience is over and it it begins with the question. What factors have driven the outcomes that I’m looking at right? What factors have driven to success, what factors have driven the struggles, what role did I play in that? What role do the students play in that? What role did the the environment, the physical environment, like the classrooms? What support did I receive? Right? It’s it’s a full analysis of the experience and not just oh, well, you know. I had 20 years, and ETBs kind of thing.

JP Flores: Yeah, no, that’s really interesting. And it it it’s amazing cause. When I hear you talk, you know, I had a question about DEI in Florida. But the way that you’re talking about this it’s it’s not it, it is DEI, but it’s not DEI right? So can you comment on that a little bit, because really, you’re centering the students perspectives. So.

Bryan Dewsbury: Yeah, I mean I, the DEI thing honestly has been a little frustrating. Just from the standpoint of, well, yeah, for obvious reasons A. But then, B, I feel like people who sort of self-declared themselves anti-DEI pigeonhole the DEI conversation into something that it’s not. Right. And it is frustrating because I feee we probably haven’t done enough to have a response to that or to counter that you know, incorrect argument, that incorrect definition. You know how I just described, you know my approach to class is the way I’ve approached my classes since I began teaching in 2014. Right? And you know we’ve gotten, we’ve gotten the kind of outcomes that you would want to get if you were focused on DEI right? We reduced […] rates, we’ve remove gaps. All those students were successful going forward like, we’ve done all the things right, without actually really calling it DEI. And and it’s and this is not me trying to like run away from diversity, equity, and inclusion. But it’s actually me understanding those terms as being highly sophisticated, but highly, but but as things that are on our path to something else, to something big and beautiful, right? And the big and beautiful thing is like, yeah, I dream of a class, right? This is Lansing news. I dream of a class where you know you walk in and how you identify does not predict how you you know what happens in terms of your success or struggles. Right? And so that’s that’s sort of everybody, right, and I can do the things I can understand the Black experience. I can understand the immigrant experience. I can understand the first gen experience I can understand, empathize with the female identifying experience. I can do my homework on what it means to make sure they walk into that class and feel like this is a community and a place they can thrive. Right? Without having to actually even call it DEI stuff it’s really more humanist way of seeing a classroom right? And so diversity is just a description. It just means there are different things of something. Inclusion is the things you do to make those different things feel a a sense of belonging and community, right? And equity mindedness just really more speaks to the outcome of all of that right. And so. But but ultimately I’m- Bryan is thinking like look, man, these. They’re gonna vote, they’re gonna marry. Maybe they’re gonna have jobs. They’re gonna run for office. They’re gonna own businesses. I need them loving each other. I need them to see each other as part of the in group right? I need them to to be confident. I need them to have to feel a sense of agency about this world they’re entering into. That’s the stuff that matters to me. The DEI is on is along the way.

JP Flores: Right, right. Yeah, no, that’s that’s beautifully said. So let’s let’s stay in that realm. Recruitment and retention, right? I’m not sure how much time you’ve spent thinking about this. But, like, DEI, those terms aside, when it comes to recruitment and retention, recruiting and and retaining people from all walks of life. How do you think that that should be done appropriately, like, like, for example, should we be should UNC be going to all the HBCUs in North Carolina, and really trying to recruit students of color, or what is the best way to do this when it comes to recruitment and retention?

Bryan Dewsbury: Yeah, this. It’s a broad question.

JP Flores: Very broad. Yeah, I just wanted to see what.

Bryan Dewsbury: Yeah, well, alright! Let me let me go ahead with it then. I’m I’m less concerned about institutions recruiting. I’m more concerned about institutions creating an environment that when people get there they feel like a whole person. Yeah, I’ve I’ve seen too many cases where a lot of well-meaning energy is spent on going into rural areas, going into Black communities, going into inner city, urban high schools, but doing nothing to address the toxic culture that’s on campus. Right. And to to the point where, honestly, I don’t. I don’t really. I don’t really get into recruitment to say, or maybe I don’t even really use it, too. Like, there’s a couple of programs I’m a part of now in South Florida that is trying to work with you know, traditionally low income high schools. And and I and what I tell them is like don’t even tell them about your program. Build a relationship first, we’ll spend time and get to know them. Show up there, get to know the teachers, get to know the students, get to know the community before you start passing out flyers right? And I think too many schools want to get to the pass out flyers stage, right, before they do that trust building. And you know I don’t want to take the position that okay, you know. If you just do that, then they will naturally come, and you know, if you build it they will come. I do believe some of that will happen. But you know I do worry a little bit, JP, that that goals that are centered around, you know, getting, you know, kind of a united cause, a […] feeling on campus. I feel that they’re getting at the wrong thing. I feel like get out of feel good notion of of diversity that. And and I like it, too, right? That’s how I grew up. But I, you know, it’s, I don’t know, JP, when is, is University of Idaho really, ever gonna be that diverse? I mean, with all due respect to the good state, right? But so so to me, that that’s if it happens great. But to me what you want to focus on: make a campus, a place that whoever shows up, you have to feel as one of 100 in the class, right? But it’s you. You understand that you are a global community and not just, you know, regional. And so that that is kind of where I would take that.

JP Flores: Yeah, no, definitely very valid. And I know you spent some time in Rhode Island. Right? So can you talk to me about that transition from Rhode Island to FIU? Yeah.

Bryan Dewsbury: Well, it wasn’t really much of a transition, because I did grad school in FIU, right? So I I went back to the school. I did grad school. The the good thing was that you know, coming back to FIU, I didn’t come back as a marine biologist. I came back as a science education researcher. Right? So I I just felt it was nice to have a niche that was that was mine. But I but I still benefited from the familiarity of being at an institution that that I knew very well. You know Rhode Island was great too, Rhode Island was great. You know, it was a really really nice state, so I lived in Providence it’s a wonderful city.

JP Flores: Oh, is that where you were?

Bryan Dewsbury: Well, I lived in Providence. The school is in Kingston, a little bit of a under the radar city that people tend to not know about, but it packs a bigger punch than you would think with size, and there’s a lot of really amazing history in in Rhode Island, etc. I felt career wise was a great place to start. I had a wonderful Dean and some other people in administration who really supported the very unique vision I took to work and still have some good friends and collaborators there, and you know. But when FIU came calling it was just time. Well, it’s one of those things. It was just time and I was the only discipline based education research at URI when I was there. You know, FIU has, I think there’s 20 of us, maybe so it just offers different opportunities to pursue bigger kinds of questions and grants and things like that. But but yeah, Rhode Island was a good time. And my first 4 season experience.

JP Flores: Yeah, yeah, I I really like Providence, I actually, one of my dream things, one of my, I have many dreams. One of them is to end up at Brown and I, I ended up. I’m giving a talk at Brown next month. And I went last year to give a poster, and Providence is just so cool. The food, you know, things like that. I I just really really liked it.

Bryan Dewsbury: They used to have the highest number of restaurants per capita.

JP Flores: Really?

Bryan Dewsbury: Yeah, because there’s a culinary school. Yeah, yeah. So they graduate. And they open restaurants. That’s what you do. Right?

JP Flores: Yeah, so can you talk about your transition from marine biologist to stem researcher in the context of, you know. For me, I’m using pubmed right to find all my studies that have to do with gene regulation and things like that. And now that I’m trying to delve into this other realm, side, more, the humanities, social science side, I’m trying to figure out. Is there a pubmed for that? Like what is what is the what is your way to do research in this field. In STEM education?

Bryan Dewsbury: I would say a little bit more organically. At least this is how I ended up my approach right? When I, when I first, the center for teaching well, the center for the advancement of teaching, who basically took me under their wing when I made this interest transition right? The first thing they did was give me books to read right? So I read books like Whistling Vivaldi, Blind Spot. You know, Mindset, you know. So there are a few of those books that I read. And as you know, those books are written by faculty who study those things, and they’ve written those books for a slightly more popular audience. But the books have citations right? So reading the books was a good entry point to have in our general understanding of it. But then, actually following the original papers is, was that really was the start of the intellectual component of this journey right? And you know, papers, we get papers right? And I think. Yeah, honestly, now that you’re asking a good question, because I honestly can’t really think of a time I’ve gone into PubMed or anywhere and really kind of typed in keywords. It’s been more, you know I’m trying to figure something out, and I have a friend who either studies it or knows a reference and say, Hey, do you know anything about space retrieval and learning, or whatever. They’ll send me a couple of papers, and then that would generate more papers. The other thing which is important for us who are trained in basic science is I’ve always tried to have a lot of humility, right? There are wonderful scholars out there who spend their life’s work doing this kind of scholarship, doing these methodologies that I was not trained in, at least at the undergraduate grad level. And so, if I need to learn that I will connect with somebody who that’s their bread and butter right? Another good technique is, you know, I’d send at least some, if not most of my papers, to journals in their field right? Because that way it can be reviewed by people who actually know what they’re talking about. Right. And it does enhance the quality, the writing, and the rigor of what I’m submitting. So just, I think just a potpourri of all of those different things is what you know has allowed me to stay fresh.

JP Flores: Yeah, well, do you have any like role models in the field? Cause I’m sure there’s a lot right? I am for me. I think Beronda’s stuff is amazing. The stuff she’s done on mentorship. Again, I follow you on Twitter, and I love when you publish your stuff because it’s just there, right like, if I want something in your realm, I just go over to your social media. Maybe role models is too big of a thing. Maybe it’s more of like, whose work do you really really admire, respect and follow closely? Maybe that’s the better question.

Bryan Dewsbury: Yeah. There, there are a few. There are a few out there. This is. This is in no particular order and this probably is an incomplete list. I definitely say Mays Imad from Connecticut College. And all of the stuff that she writes about trauma-informed teaching and the role of you know, trauma in different levels. I’m very inspired by a South African clinical psychologist named […] who has done a lot of work on trauma after, with the Truth and Reconciliation Commission for the United Nations. I was a big fan of, one of my favorite books is Thinking Fast and Slow by the late Dr. Daniel Kahneman from Princeton. So so I guess maybe the short answer to your question is perhaps there’s less of, I mean, those are examples right, and I can give you some more. But I think a lot of the things that inspire my work tend to be people who are asking questions about how should we live our life. Right. And I don’t. I don’t mean that facetiously. I actually mean that as a real question, because to me. I want to emulate the answer to that question in the classroom, or I want to help. I want to use the classroom to help students find answers to that question. And so the words that inspire me are words that sort of get at right. And this is not necessarily just nonfiction. This is also, you know, when I think of books like Poisonwood Bible by Barbara Kingsolvo or Homegoing by Gyasi. And you know things that are trying to interrogate the human experience right, that those are my motivating things.

JP Flores: Cool. Well, I have a couple more questions before I move into fun questions. Do you have any tips for you know, earlier career researchers that are passionate about bridging, about bridging science and society? Tips or advice.

Bryan Dewsbury: Yeah, I well, I guess I would say it, I think it’s important to try to find yourself in a situation, if it’s possible, that will support those, those views. That would support the interdisciplinary or diverse kind of career. I’ve had some tough conversations with people at different campuses I’ve been at, you know who wanna do it, but you know they will only come such and such for tenure, or they don’t value such and such. And it’s hard, you know. I mean, I don’t wanna tell them like well, just leave. You know, people have families, people have lives and mortgages and stuff like that. So if you’re in a situation where you you can make choices, it is worth it, right, to ask the right questions to make sure that that is something that will be supported. The second thing which I know I’ve said already is to do- be humble about what you don’t know, and to the extent that you can reach out to people in the, in the things that you’re trying to bridge with, right, whether it’s another field, whether it’s a community-based organization you want to work with. Be humble and respectful about what you don’t know, and be willing to listen and learn, because it is in that listening where you figure out whether bridging can happen.

JP Flores: Yeah, is that advice you would give yourself earlier in your career? Or would you tell yourself specifically something different?

Bryan Dewsbury: I mean, I don’t, I don’t wanna sound arrogant. But it’s kinda how I was always, like, I mean, put because I kinda came into higher ed, knowing that I didn’t want to do the classic professor model. I knew I didn’t want that right. And part of this is my own background, how I was raised, and and you know, you know my notions and cultivations of leadership, and a classroom and stuff like that. And so I always viewed my role as a teacher as mostly a listener. Right? And I guess I’m saying this as advice now, because I’ve seen benefits of that approach. You know, if I had to give 34 year old Brian advice, I would say, buy better snow shoes. When you come from the Caribbean you don’t know better, so you know. You fall a couple of times before you realize it.

JP Flores: Yeah, yeah, I like, yeah, being from LA, completely different from the Caribbean. But being from LA, where everything’s sunny and then moving to North Carolina. Seeing the northeast. I’m like, what the hell! What is going on right now?

Bryan Dewsbury: If you go to Brown, you go to Brown man!

JP Flores: Yeah, yeah. Alright, here’s some, here’s some fun questions. You know, if we were at a party together. Like, let’s say, it’s, we’re celebrating something amazing, something great, something. Let’s say, the system has changed for the better, and it’s everything that we want. What song would we be dancing to?

Bryan Dewsbury: Carnival Contract by Bunji Garlin .

JP Flores: Man, you are quick! That was quick. That was the fastest response. I think I’ve had.

Bryan Dewsbury: I love, I love, I love music. Yeah.

JP Flores: Yeah?

Bryan Dewsbury: That’s that’s a song that’s a song from Trinidad.

JP Flores: Yeah, okay, what other? What kind of music are you into?

Bryan Dewsbury: So so the music is probably, is, not probably it is my number one. But I do listen to a lot of salsa music like, dance a lot of salsa. I grew up listening to a lot of slow rock kind of, and I played when I was younger. I used to listen to a lot of classical. I still do from time to time, but not much. I love jazz, but I I really almost exclusively listen to jazz live. That’s that’s when I like jazz the most. There was some songs growing up I thought was soft rock or love songs, and I when I moved to the US, I realized it was country. I think, Oh, I guess I listen to country. Well, there we go.

JP Flores: That’s fun!

Bryan Dewsbury: So, yeah, I mean, and and yeah, my spotify playlist is a random mix of dance. Oh, yeah, a lot of dance also. But you know I’m 44 now. So I do the like, yeah well, back in my day dance hall was blah blah, alright. So I do that. But you know I have some afrobeats on there. My brother-in-law is Haitian so he introduced me to compa music and zouk and stuff like that.

JP Flores: Yeah, is that your favorite thing to do outside of what you do in lab? Is it like dancing, like listening to music? What’s your favorite pastime?

Bryan Dewsbury: That’s one of a few things. I do, exercise is a big mental health thing to me, so I do like to run, and different forms of exercise. I’m not sort of dedicated to one particular thing. I do do a lot of music related things where it’s Caribbean parties in Miami, or, you know, live jazz or things like that. I like a good restaurant, more like the cuisine and high quality, you know. I think Providence spoiled me with that. Good good food. I, my son’s are 10 and 7, so they take up a lot of my not-work time, and I enjoy every second of it. They’re both avid footballers, as in football, football, not American football. I always have to clarify right. And they love it. I love it. I love watching them play. We play together, they play on teams, and so that’s a big enjoyment. The big source of enjoyment.

JP Flores: You talked about food. What is your favorite type of cuisine and places to eat? Maybe name one, and name at least one in Providence, so I could visit it.

Bryan Dewsbury: Okay so you ask 2 questions, because favorite kind of food and places to eat is kind of 2 things, and so the biases. You say you’re born in LA, right Southern California. So I was born in Trinidad. For an island it’s a mix of Eastern cuisine from the indentured laborers who came, and African cuisine from slavery right? And then a bunch of other stuff. There’s Chinese immigration, Portuguese immigration. So it’s a it’s a fascinating cuisine, and I don’t, I think for me that’s always number one. But there’s a clear bias right? And to the extent that when you enjoy food, what you’re enjoying is not just the taste, you’re enjoying like a whole cultural experience. And so I think that has to stand on its own. Right? Okay, put that aside. I really love Middle Eastern food. In fact, that probably is my number one, like, just yeah, just as a nice, yeah, just really fresh olive oil. Yeah. Yeah. Spices? Maybe. Followed by quickly by Spanish food. Yeah. Spain. Yeah. Spain. Spain. Yeah. Yeah. As opposed to Latin America. Yeah, Spain, right? But specifically to Providence. Alright, yeah. If you’re going high end.

JP Flores: I’m a grad student, Bryan!

Bryan Dewsbury: Well, okay, but at some point you’ll be a full professor with an endowed position. Alright. So when that time, when that time comes, go to Persimmon on on Hope Street. That that for me is still like the number one restaurant. In Pawtucket, there’s a Cape Verdean restaurant called 10 Rocks that’s pretty reasonably priced and extremely good. They do fish well, get the octopus if you’re into that.

JP Flores: Oh, my God!

Bryan Dewsbury: But then again, this thing, a lot of Providence is that you don’t, it, every restaurant is not like, the good restaurants aren’t just like expensive. So on at Wells Avenue. If you’re going like you go through Federal Hill and you keep going. There’s a Mexican restaurant called Mexico Restaurant.

JP Flores: So creative.

Bryan Dewsbury: I was like, you know what the food, but the food it’s it’s it’s really is the best definitely in the state. But it might. It might be better. I mean, I’m trying to think of the place. I know people in Texas and Cali would say, Yeah, really, Bryan, but it’s, I think it’s I think I think it compares man. It’s called Mexico Restaurant. Okay? And then one more. In South Providence. There’s a Dominican restaurant called La Gran Parada. Authentic Dominican food. They take cash only, so let that tell you.

JP Flores: That’s how you know.

Bryan Dewsbury: That’s how you know, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, there’s more. But that may be my top 4 right there. Yeah.

JP Flores: Okay, cool. I wrote them all down. We’re good, cool. Well, that’s all the questions I had for you. I wanna thank you again for taking the time to do that. I thought that was a really fun, would you be interested in coming to UNC for like a talk next year, or like in the fall, or something, or?

Bryan Dewsbury: Oh, let me know. Let me know. Yeah, reach out. Let me know I do, I still have good friends. One of my good friends […] is an associate dean.

JP Flores: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Bryan Dewsbury: Yeah, yeah.

JP Flores: I teach some workshops with her.

Bryan Dewsbury: Okay.

JP Flores: Yeah, any conferences that you know we should look out for in your field?

Bryan Dewsbury: Oh, my field is broad, man. I go to conferences that deal with institutional change. But I also go to conferences that do basic educational research. But I also go to conferences that do with student success. So sometimes it sort of depends on if you know, if I’m invited for a keynote or something, or depends on what way my grants are and what I need to present. So coming up, I’m going to society for the advancement of biology education research in July. I’m going to the Society for Social Studies and Sciences International Conference, this year it will be in Amsterdam. I typically go to the AAC&U conferences, the flagship one in January, and then the transforming STEM in November, and then the general education, pedagogy, and assessment one in April. So yeah, I’m a little all over the place when it comes to that.

JP Flores: I just ask, cause I just wanna know what’s out there. So that’s great.

Bryan Dewsbury: Yeah, well, there’s a lot. There’s a lot yeah.

JP Flores: Alright cool. Well, thank you, Bryan. Thank you again. Have a great weekend.

Bryan Dewsbury: You, too, man. Take care, bye.