Bring Others Up With You: Dr. Michael Johnson

In this episode, I interviewed Dr. Michael Johnson, an Associate Professor of Immunobiology and Associate Dean for Basic Science Research and Graduate Studies in the College of Medicine at the University of Arizona.

He is also the Director of the National Summer Undergraduate Research Project (NSURP), the program that helped me recruit the first two guests I’ve ever had on this podcast! Check out NSURP ⁠here⁠.

Transcription

Transcribed by Mika O’Shea (she/her)

JP Flores: Hello!

Michael Johnson: There we go. Hi.

JP Flores: How are you?

Michael Johnson: I’m okay.

JP Flores: 2024 is just wild. Huh? Feel like it’s just meeting after meeting after meeting.

Michael Johnson: I’m trying to catch up with literally everything constantly. So.

JP Flores: Well, do you have like a strategy? I’m sure we’ll talk about that in a couple of minutes. But do you have like a strategy?

Michael Johnson: Not a good one. But yeah, this. It’s it’s hard.

JP Flores: Yeah, yeah. Oh, I get it. I’m definitely not a PI, though. So that’s probably a different level of, different level of work.

Michael Johnson: There, yeah, between that. And being a dean, it’s just kind of like a lot of weird things that come into play that I’m like, I, why is that my job? Oh, because it’s no one else’s job. Okay, that still doesn’t really make it my job. But, man.

JP Flores: Yeah, well, thank you for taking time to do this. I’m sure that I’ll try and make this a good conversation again. I’m not the best conversationalist, but we’ll see. We’ll see how this works out. I’m JP, so I use he/him pronouns. I’m a PhD candidate at UNC Chapel, Hill and I started this podcast in 2021. So I went to Occidental College in LA. I’m from Los Angeles, California, moved to Carolina, not used to the whole east coast North Carolina thing. So this is an experience, a lot of culture shock involved there. And I started this podcast because around the time of the murder of George Floyd, a bunch of seniors and I came together, and we talked to our faculty department at Occidental about you know how how we can have these discussions moving forward and not have it just be like a phased out thing like a lot of DEI efforts can can be. So we started this class called broader impacts of biology where we started having discussions about funding discrepancies in things like cystic fibrosis versus sickle cell anemia. Right? We started talking about scientific racism. And then we start talking about imposter syndrome burnout. A lot of different subjects like that. A part of the class was starting a side project where you had to like start a side project. So, for example, some of my colleagues created curriculums for local high schools. I decided to take advantage of the zoom universe and started this podcast where I just get a lot of scientists and talk about their backgrounds. And talk about how they overcame adversity things like that. I ended up interviewing Francis Collins and a lot of different cool scientists at the end of 2022, but throughout 2023 I really needed to focus on my PhD, so that’s what I did. And now I’m back in 2024 and I have the whole year booked, and I’m really excited for that. But you know, as a PhD student as you can, as you can imagine, it’s a lot of work. But I think the conversations are worth it. And I’ve had a lot of people, you know. Tell me that they got into science because of me, or I’ve had a summer student come do research in our lab because they wanted to come work with me and my PI. So that’s kind of where I’m coming from. Yeah. And I think it’s very funny, because when I was looking at your, you know by biography, I didn’t realize you went to UNC. No idea you’re in the Redinbo lab. I have a lot of friends in the Redinbo lab so it’s nice that there’s a Carolina alum. But also you went to Duke. So we can talk about that, too.

Michael Johnson: I also, interestingly, had a podcast where I also interviewed Francis Collins.

JP Flores: Oh, cool, cool. He is the best. He is literally the best. Yeah. So he actually got me an internship at the office of science policy at NIH. So that’s why I have this background. One, because the lab behind me is messy. But yeah, for the next 6 months I’ll be in the office of science policy at the NIH. Do you have any questions for me before we begin? It’s definitely an informal conversation.

Michael Johnson: No, no questions. We’ll just get into it.

JP Flores: Yeah, alright. Sounds good. Alright. Let’s start with a short autobiography. Can you tell me you know your name, educational journey where you are now, and what you’ve been up to?

Michael Johnson: Sure. Hi! My name is Michael Johnson. I’m now an associate professor at the University of Arizona and the Department of Immunobiology. I also serve as the associate Dean for basic Science research and graduate studies for the College of Medicine Tucson. I actually didn’t start in science. I started at Duke with a music major. That’s, so that’s what my undergraduate degree is in. It’s in, Duke does something weird. They have like AB instead of BA so bachelors. So you know. So I have my AB in music from Duke.

JP Flores: What instrument?

Michael Johnson: I played trumpet. I did sing, and like an Acapella group. But it was mostly yeah, if I had to choose to be more about music, theory, music composition. So I really enjoyed writing music, arranging music. How to put music together. That was the fun part of music, I mean, I don’t mind performing. It was kind of cool performing with a group. Never really was like a soloist or any of that. I you know I could take solos, and that’s fine, but that was never really my jam. It was just like sitting down and being able to compose music was a lot of fun.

JP Flores: Cool. Well, we got to stay in touch because I have a show at a brewery this weekend, a guitar, and so I’m I’m that’s that’s really cool. I didn’t know that about you.

Michael Johnson: From there I actually took on a technician position. So while I was working as a technician, I was also an assistant conductor for the Durham Youth orchestra and I was also like an assistant conductor for the the Duke University Marching Band. So I was a technician in Jeff Frellinger’s lab, who at the time was the chair of microbiology and immunology. I worked in his laboratory for 2 years and joined the, then it was called I- What was it called? Oh, goodness! I am blanking on what it was called. But there was a lot of these acronyms, you know, I guess now you all have BBSP right? So this was essentially a smaller cohort of an umbrella program before BBSP was a thing. IMSD is more of a training or a grant through the NIH. This one was actually run by Sharon Milgram, who then went to the NIH, and then Pat Brenwald who helped take it over, and then BBSP kind of took over for the umbrella program. And but it was basically that. But just on a smaller scale. IBMS, that’s what it was, and what IBMS stands for right now I don’t even remember but it was called IBMS. So yeah I worked, you know, 2 years as a technician, got into that particular program, did my first rotation with Matt Redinbo. Second rotation, because I wanted to do this umbrella program because I really wanted to rotate in Aziz Sancar’s lab cause I was really interested in Circadian rhythm. He ended up getting the Nobel prize for not Circadian rhythm, something else, but still kinda cool, that I rotated in a Nobel Prize winners lab. And then for my third rotation I did something completely off the wall which was work with a pediatric oncology lab which I was just like, well, back to biochemistry it is. Yeah, I realize just how much I just, I’m like, I’m glad there are people who study cancer because it means that I don’t have to be one of them. It’s not for me. It’s not for me.

JP Flores: A lot of money though, a lot of funding.

Michael Johnson: I mean, funding, like you look at NCI funding levels. It’s like it’s absolutely insane, you know, funding rate of like, you have to be fifth percentile to get a you know, a grant out of NCI at certain times. I’m just like what in the world, it’s like. And there’s a lot of very qualified grants that are not getting funded just because that’s where the pay line is right now for those, but I digress. So after I graduated from UNC, from Matt’s lab, went to do a postdoc at St. Jude Children’s Research Hospital. So I did one in infectious disease and one in immunology. And then I applied for faculty positions. And that’s how I ended up at University of Arizona. And that was in 2016. I’ve been here ever since.

JP Flores: So you probably don’t know this, but you actually jump started my career. Sorry to drop that bomb on you. Yeah. So my ability to navigate higher education and like just professional spaces in general is because of you. So I remember seeing a lecture for NSURP, the National Science Undergraduate research project. I was a college senior. And the speaker was Dr. Christopher Barnes. And he was actually the first PI, along with his wife, Dr. Naima Sharaf. Right? I, they were the first faculty I had on this podcast so they both ended up speaking at my Alma Mater, at Occidental. And this is like full circle for me, because, you know, now I’m at UNC. I didn’t even know you did your PhD here. So it, I think it’s pretty wild just looking back and seeing, you know, NSURP doing its whole thing virtually, getting to know Christopher, like, I still talk to him sometimes. So yeah, man, you jump started my career. I’m sorry to drop that bomb on you, but like

Michael Johnson: Oh, no, it’s, what’s crazy is so in in Kenan, which is where Matt’s lab used to be, we used to share space with Gary Pielak and so, and then Matt moved up to the ninth floor, and Pielak, I think, was either on the eighth or seventh floor at that particular time before, while there was a lot of overlap between, you know, like, and even after that, like, there was a lot of overlap between, like what Gary’s lab did and what our lab did. I was always down there using a spec to do some, what technique is that, polarization studies. So it was kinda, it was kind of cool, you know, cause I saw him as an undergrad. Then I saw him as a master student, right? And in that particular lab. So it was. It was kind of cool. Just also seeing his journey, which is one of the reasons why I say I gotta you know, invite him. And then all of a sudden, he blew up as well, which is great.

JP Flores: Yeah, yeah. And they’re the ones that convinced me to apply to UNC. Because as a West Coast kid, I had no intention of even thinking about going to the East Coast or the south, for that matter, and I didn’t know what the South like was, you know what I mean. So it’s wild to me that, like I’m talking to the person that is the reason why I, you know, saw Christopher Barnes give a talk, and I reached out to him, and he’s the one that told me to apply to UNC. And now I’m here. So thank you.

Michael Johnson: That’s cool. That’s really cool. It’s so crazy how some of these organic connections just like come out of nowhere. You you never know the impact that you have on a group of people, on a you know, on a person. And you know, you know, I think a lot of times we talk in science about what is our measured impact right? And a lot of times people want to talk about impact being how many citations did your paper get? What kind of discovery did you make? But sometimes impact is who did you bring to the table? And so I’m real happy that you’re at the table.

JP Flores: Yeah. So the impact that you made on me also is like you empowered me to do things like this podcast and also become a scientist. But it’s also, like you taught me how to do that for someone else. Right? Just the fact that you brought Christopher Barnes because you knew what his story was. The fact that he shared that and got to me. I’m trying to do the same exact thing, right with these podcasts, I’m trying to bring people up with me and give them the information they need, so that they can also get here. So I just needed to take a moment to reflect on that because it’s so wild to think I just came out of a meeting. And now I’m like, wait, this is I needed to like focus up because this is wild.

Michael Johnson: There, there’s so many things that people can do inside of science right? There’s and the fact that we get to have these type of interactions. It’s just really special.

JP Flores: So let’s talk about NSURP real fast, can you- so you’re the director still, I believe, right? You, you founded it, and all that, so can you give us a lowdown on, on what it is, what the mission and goal is, and how people can be involved?

Michael Johnson: Absolutely. You know what I can also say is, we just opened up our applications for 2024. So we’re looking for undergraduates to apply. We’re also looking for mentors for the program. So back in 2020, I realized that there were a number of people missing out on their summer research internships. And you know, for those of you who might not know how it works. If you want to go into graduate school, you really need some research experience in your undergrad or after undergrad. You need, you need to be, you know, have some research chops. And what I saw in this particular situation was, a number of people are going to be left out of the pool of applicants because they didn’t get that summer opportunity. And it’s not because, you know, some it was because they didn’t have those opportunities at their institution. It was too late. They didn’t, weren’t thinking about it. But with this it’s as I said, we can hopefully do something about this. So I talked to David Baltris, who’s here at the U of A, and also Jen Guardi, who works with Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. And I said, well, can we, how can we do this? What can we put together? We said, Well, let’s make a summer like, you know, we kind of said, let’s make a summer program. So I you know, I kind of you know, Jen Guardi, she was great with logistics, but you know I was kind of driving the engine and saying, All right, let’s do this. Let’s do this. So in 11 days we put together a summer research program. Which was an absolute crazy 11 days. And what I can say about this program, is it really uplifted, uplifted my spirits. There were a lot of things going on that weren’t the best. If you are a Black person in America, weren’t the best if you are a minority in America, and you know, if you wanna, you know, look up what was going on in, you know the spring of 2020 in addition to what was going on- there was a lot of stuff going on, and I’ll have people, just you know you. You can look that up if you want to. You know you can read in between these lines, and I’ll make those lines really well to say it was a lot going on. But it was really taxing. It was really difficult to be able to think through some of those situations, and like, how do you think about your science when some of that stuff is going on? How do you think about, you know your community? So you know you need ways to channel some of that negativity into doing something positive. And that’s why, you know, when I said it took 11 days, you know we were. You know, we were doing a lot in those 11 days. So we opened up the call. We had it open for a week to say, this is what we’re gonna do. We’re gonna match mentor to mentee and say, if you have a project, give it to your mentee. If not, then you know, spread the word. And you know a lot of people were just kind of coming out saying, we are allies. We’re allies. I said, Okay, well put your money where your mouth is, be an ally here. Like, give them the opportunity to do research virtually. Give them a program. Give them a data set that they can analyze, teach them how to code, pair with them. In that first summer we had just about 250 undergrads, and I did not realize that gmail had a limitation on how many emails you could send out in a day. But we figured that out very quickly. And then, you know, I, what was interesting is I put in a career award through the NSF. And I said, my broader impacts are going to be trying to get a some kind of director level position for NSURP and then the rest will be my science, which was at that point kind of underdeveloped. But still, I’m like, I want this for the broader impacts. So I did not get that. But the broader impact score I got was actually tremendous to the point where I reached out to the program officer and said, Hey, you really like this, and this was like the part of this Grant I really was like excited about. Can we do something here? So I ended up getting a RAPID award from the bio group at NSF to fund a number of students in that first year, and now we’re, now we’re paying them. Now there’s equity, there’s skin in the game. So you know, now they’re working 40 hours per week. Then, after that, I actually applied for a research experience for undergraduates, REU, and got that one. And we’re in our third year of that this year. So it was funded to kinda hire 25, or 35 students per year, undergrads for the summer for an 8 week program. So what started off as kind of just microbiology in discipline is also now expanded. Now we’re into computational immunology. We’re into biomedical engineering. We’re into cancer genetics. So we’re really trying to expand on what we can offer to trainees and what mentors have to offer as projects so that we can engage multiple people in science. So they can have these opportunities. And I’ll just say this last bit about it. What started off as something that we were trying to, we’re trying to give people opportunity because they missed out on COVID. But we discovered this population that had the inability to travel during the summer due to family obligations, health obligations. And now those are the, that’s the population. That’s the people that we now serve with this particular program. So you know, we asked them, it’s like, Well, what is your compelling reason for needing to do a virtual program? Why can’t you go to something in person? And you know we hear all these reasons, and you know we publish on these reasons, and and both journal, biology and Microbiology, or journal of microbiology and biology education, and also mBio, on some of our findings from this particular program. And how impactful, hopefully, it’s been to people.

JP Flores: Yeah, that’s amazing. It almost gives me Meyerhoff scholars vibes. Just a new rendition of it, right? Kind of serves the same purpose based off this data that you just collected.

Michael Johnson: And I would love for it to be kind of a household name like that. So you know, insert for different disciplines and people. Oh, when you go somewhere and say, Oh, I was an NSURP scholar. Oh, oh, you know I you know we wanna we’re trying to build that right now. But it’s hard to, you know, track people and all that kind of thing, but that’s where we would love to be able to go and kinda have something that really builds and gives this. You know this virtual component some legs. Because, you know, you, you think about what is the, what is the primary point of some of these summer research programs? And I would argue that it’s to be able to make a hypothesis and defend it. It isn’t so much necessarily getting in the lab and doing stuff, while that is great, and I want people to have that opportunity. I’m not dismissing that opportunity, but at its core. Can you make a hypothesis, and can you defend it? And we’ve shown that we can do that virtually.

JP Flores: Yeah. sorry. I still need to love on NSURP a little bit more because I forgot to mention this tiny detail. The first ever guests I had on this podcast were NSURP scholars. Brian Zou and Evelyn Montenegro. Yeah, they went to UC Davis, and another- Yeah. And I totally forgot to tell you that, too. The first ever people on this podcast were NSURP scholars. And then the next year, because I’ve only heard great things or because I’ve had great experiences with NSURP people, I got someone from my Alma Mater Occidental College to actually do NSURP the next summer because she was looking for a virtual experience. So I’m just gonna keep on loving on NSURP. So NSURP was a monumental effort, and I was wondering, you know, what drives you to do it, you know, cause it, cause being an academic. It’s a lot of pressure. It’s a lot of you know publishing, dealing with different types of people. What are your motivations for keeping it going? Is it more of like an upbringing thing? Can you just paint us a picture about that?

Michael Johnson: Because it is needed. And sometimes that’s the answer to things. It’s like, why are you doing this? Because it’s needed. Right? But what about all you have to give up? Well. Yeah, I have to give those things up. I mean, what was, what the part that I left out of the story was I was pre tenure doing all this. Pre tenure during COVID, when I was supposed to be generating lots of knowledge and papers, and getting grants and all that stuff, so that I could go up for tenure. And sometimes to, I knew that, you know there were certain things in my laboratory that probably weren’t happening because I was so into NSURP. I knew I would get to those scientific discoveries. But you know, as we’re not just monolithic researchers, we are whole professors in which we value the educational enterprise. At least that’s how I see myself. And this was a way that I was absolutely honoring that value to the scientific enterprise by again giving access to individuals. So you know it’s, I had to be somewhat willing in that situation, and I kinda had this conversation with my wife as well said, You know. What if this keeps me from, what if I have to wait a year to go up for tenure because of this. You know, I’m gonna get it like, I’m not like, you know, and I know not everybody gets it. But I’m like I’m gonna get it. I’m gonna, I’m not terribly worried about it. But of course you’re always worried about it until you get the decision that’s yes. But sometimes to do something great, you have to be willing to risk it all. And I had to value, I had to weigh that risk on what am I willing to give up? What am I willing to sacrifice other places so that I can make this program a reality? And so I can build it. And so I can make it something that becomes too big to fail, if you know you want to use, like all those weird banking analogies and stuff like that. But I mean right now, it’s like, if I said, Hey, I need to, NSURP is now a rally point, you know. If I ask people for help, I can get help with that. And that’s something that makes me unbelievably proud of what we’ve been able to accomplish here. And you know it’s just. It’s but it’s one of those things where I did it because it was needed, and I keep doing it because it’s still needed, and until it’s not needed and you know, I have that, you know stake in a gain. I’m going to stay here and keep doing it. But I definitely had to sit back and say, Alright. What are you willing to risk? What are you willing to put aside to make this happen? Because time is finite and this job this profession a lot of different career choices they will take from you as much as you are willing to give them. So you have to be be able to take a step back and divide your time. Reclaim your time. And make sure that you’re doing things that serve you first and then serve the community and NSURP served me very well. I mean, like I said I was going, I was. It was. It was not a great time, and that was something that was really food for my soul to be able to see so many people get opportunity and get help, and become engaged in science.

JP Flores: Yeah. So, I highly doubt you did this alone. What was your support system, like, you know, going through this? Because I’m sure you’re trying to to beat, to beat burnout all these things, and I guess the answer could be, it’s just one to combat the burnout, it was just needed, like you were able to just pull something from inside you and go for it. But I’m sure you didn’t do this alone. Right? Who were, what was the supporting cast here?

Michael Johnson: So yeah, it definitely was a lot of brute force of just kind of like powering through but with Dave Baltris and Jennifer Guardi kind of helping on the front end. That was very helpful, and I would say, you know, my chair at one point said to me. I forbid you from working on this unless you’re gonna use my admin to help you. Like, he just said, I have to, you know, like, please accept this help because you’re doing something huge. So you know, sometimes that kind of support, you know, is worth its weight in gold. When your chair sees that and says okay, I got your back here. Alright, let’s. And so that was, that was a big help and, you know. I’d say that the biggest support actually came from the mentors that stepped up to support people in their laboratories. Meaning the program would be nothing without the mentors. I mean the graduate students who said, I wanna mentor, the post docs, the PIs. All these people said, I’m gonna open up my lab to do something that I’ve never done before. I’m gonna mentor somebody virtually and come up with a project with them and meet with them and incorporate them into our lab slack, or our lab Zoom Meetings, or like whatever. But you know this was new for a lot of those individuals, too. So you asked where the help came from the help came from those who were giving talks, those who were giving the seminars. Those who were, you know, opening up their labs. Those who were financially supporting the endeavor. And you know, that’s that. So that’s kind of where the village kind of really helped move forward. And at that point it was just me saying how can I steer the ship instead of like, now I gotta do everything on the ship, which was crazy to start off with. But I don’t have to like, I’m glad I’m glad we’re off the ground. But we’re, I still feel like we’re like building the plane in the air. But I’m glad we’re off the ground.

JP Flores: That’s just life man. That’s how I feel all the time. So this might be kind of a self-serving question. But I think you would have really good advice on this. As a graduate student, right? Very, someone who’s very passionate about diversity, equity and inclusion. At this stage, me and a lot of my peers. We are dedicating a lot of time to initiatives like, obviously not to the magnitude of NSURP, but we are also trying to, you know, create a space for us, trying to drive change in our institutions. But we’re scientists in training, right. We’re still getting our PhDs. Do you have any advice for grad students out there who really do have a passion for DEI, but they still need to get the job done in the lab. Because I’m experiencing something similar. I, you know I have tough conversations with my PI about, you know, I’m spending a lot of time trying to drive change in, in diversifying science and in terms of recruitment and retaining students of color. But you know he knows that, like I need to do the science in order to graduate. So what is, what is your advice there?

Michael Johnson: My first piece of advice is something that people rarely like to hear. And it’s that it’s not your job. It’s not your job to do this. It’s not your job to do the DEI. It’s not your job to do all these extra curricular things. It’s not your job. It should be the jobs of people who are now in my position. The professors, the Deans, the, you know it should be us who’s driving it. It should be us who’s shielding you from doing that. But it’s absolutely not your job. And I think that’s the first thing that people need to first of all hear and accept and acknowledge about the situation that they’re currently in. Because if we start to make it your job, then I think that’s the system failing you in multiple different ways. If we start to make it your job, then we’re not. Actually, we’re taking it off of our plate for things that we’re actually getting paid to do to, you know to help this institution. You’re getting a stipend to do work in your PI’s lab. They’re paying for your tuition so that you can take classes. Now, what I will say with all of this, you know, with me saying it’s not your job, is that the other problem is for graduate trainees, is we try to dictate their entire lives, and you all are full grown adults. And that is not our right. If they’re, you know, give you a prime example, you know, I said this one time and I and you know, I basically, you know, like was talking to a professor. And I was like, so I have a question, yeah. So if I go to the school and volunteer and like, do this activity, he’s just like, Yeah, that’s taking time away from science. But what if I like go running in the morning? Oh, it’s great that you’re taking care of your health, I’m like. Why are those two different? Right? If I take an hour to do this or an hour to do that, why is it like? The answer was just like. Well, one is taking care, I mean. And he said, one is taking care of yourself, so you can be better in the laboratory. The other one’s actually taking time away. But, and he was like, Look, it’s different, because it just is sorry. You know, it’s just really weird that if you’re doing anything related to science, then it’s taking away from your ability to do other science versus if you do other things that are not in science, if you have other hobbies, then that’s fine. I’m gonna go to the movie with friends. Cool. Have fun. I’m gonna go to this school. Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! I’m gonna go talk to these kids. Whoa! Whoa! Who I’m gonna go, you know, you know what you do with your time is on your time, and I don’t think that any PI has any dominion in that particular area. Now, what I will say, though, is there’s, and I think this might be what he was getting at with some of the scientific, with the difference in scientific outreach versus like doing things for your own health is if you want to be respected. And this is just cold, hard truth. I’m sorry. This is like it is. If you want to be respected in the DEI Space Community. If you want to be, you know, like, oh, people can see that you’re doing all the stuff in a space, your house needs to be in order. It does. And that means that for as good as you want to be in this area over here, you have to be at least that good in the laboratory. You have to be saying. I’m getting publications. I’m getting papers, you know. Here’s my second first author paper. Here’s my third, you know, there has to be a scientific floor that you have because the moment you and this isn’t just with the PI in the laboratory because they can support you all you want. But the moment that you get in front of somebody who says, you know, and they ask you a question that you don’t know the answer to. They’re going to say, Well, why don’t you know that? Didn’t you have time to look that up before your committee meeting, or before this class or before all of this other stuff before your oral defense? I also would say try not to do anything before your orals at least pass at least become a PhD Candidate before you start trying to do a lot of extra stuff, because that is a very, very, it’s just very easy to get distracted. From where you need to be. The analogy that I actually use in this particular point is as you’re a graduate trainee. Imagine you’re on the first floor. You need to get to the second floor. Right? Well, actually, let’s let like your whole life is just a building of like, of of different floors, right? And to get from, let’s say, grad school is floor number 3 and postdoc is floor number 4 right to get from the third floor to the fourth floor you put up a ladder and you’re climbing up that ladder right? Are you more effective if you’re holding onto that ladder and pulling somebody up with you onto that ladder, or are you more effective if you’re on the fourth floor and you’re taking ladders from them, and you’re putting them down, or you’re reaching down and pulling people up. Where are you most effective? And people use that analogy to say, Oh, just wait till you become a postdoc. Then you can do it. Wait to become assistant professor, then you can do it. Wait till you become associate and tenure. Wait till you become full. Wait till you become Dean. So people use that argument against me to say, well, wait until you’re at least at this particular level before you can help, and I’m just like no, you can still, you know, have that, you know that that mentoring web and mentor other people up and down, but still have to be conscious of where you are on that building, and where you can offer assistance to where you can offer the most help. Where, at what point can you do the greatest good, and at what point is doing that good valuable to you to make yourself whole, or to make that other person become like another member of the scientific table that you’re trying to invite them to right? So, there’s it’s it’s it’s complicated, man, it it. It just really is complicated about like, how do you manage your time so that you’re doing well in the laboratory and being able to help others, how do you turn it off and say, well, I’m now doing all the stuff for this DEI initiative and then also for laboratory. And I’m actually not taking any time for myself, either, like, you know. Now, I’m neglecting my personal relationships. Now, I’m not working out. Or now I’m not like binge watching Netflix, that I need to just make my mind just like turn off a little bit because you need that, too. Right? So it’s just like, you know. You know, I know this is kind of a word salad of, you know, a lot of things that you need to be able to consider. But I do think that all of those things are things that you need to be considering when you’re moving forward. Nothing is, you know, research isn’t a monolith. What I would say to individuals, though, as they’re moving forward is saying, Look, if you’re going to pitch doing some of these outreach opportunities, the podcast, the the writing. Then you need to pitch them as professional development opportunities for a future career choice. And say, Well, hey, PI, like, you know, I know you said that you don’t want to make Clones of yourself. You don’t want, you know you don’t need everybody to become a PI. Well, you know, this is the area that I want to go in, and this is the training that I’m trying to have in my graduate career to support me getting there. This is the exact, this is the exact skill I’m going to get by having communication on podcasts. This is the exact skill I’m going to get while going to Capitol Hill to talk policy. This is the exact skill I’m going to have by leading this initiative because that gives me leadership skills. It gives me the ability to actually manage, not just my time in a laboratory, but manage, you know it gives me, it’s management training by trial by fire. Right? So I think that if you’re going to do these things, not only, again, lab has to be on lockdown, like you got to have that set, but you also have to know exactly what you want out of that opportunity to be able to engage in it, and once you engage in it, you know again, think of where you are on that ladder, where you can help people. And you know all those other analogies that I gave earlier.

JP Flores: Yeah, that is definitely the most beautiful analogy for that. But also this is like Francis Collins told me the exact same thing. That is exactly how we, how we put it right. It’s like you need to have a scientific floor in order to do all these things first. Or at least like try to do both, but really emphasize, you know, getting to the next step, and really proving yourself scientifically, honestly like.

Michael Johnson: Because then you become the story of the burnout. Then you become the story of the person who tried to do too much and didn’t make it. And then that diminishes what the next person will be able to do.

JP Flores: So how can we make sure that I’m not doing this work. And other graduate students aren’t doing this work, right? What are some things that institutions and systems can do to actually support their students from, you know, historically underrepresented backgrounds, what is, you know the U of A doing? Is there anything in particular that you see that you’re doing there that other places should be doing, or what are the things that come that stand out the most?

Michael Johnson: Well, the one thing I would say is at your particular institution, find initiatives that are already in place. Right? I was actually in the first cohort of IMSD when I got there with-

JP Flores: Oh, that makes sense, so do you know Dan Dominguez too? Because wasn’t he in that then?

Michael Johnson: Say the name again?

JP Flores: Dan Dominguez.

Michael Johnson: I might know his face. I don’t. I don’t.

JP Flores: Yeah, that’s so cool. You’re part of the first IMSD cohort. Y\

Michael Johnson: Yeah, it was like us and the year above, the year above me. We were kind of like the first, you know, first cohort. That’s when the grant had just got funded. Yeah. And UNC became, you know, quite the flagship for that particular grant. But one of the things that, with finding things like that, you know, like what is already established, you know I know it, I was also part of the first cohort of people who made DNA day at UNC. With Josh and with Pat Phelps, and with a lot of people, you know, and then that turned into like a huge thing. But you know you, you find these initiatives that have already been established, and you build off of those like. It is, unless you have a great fantastic novel idea that you want to, you know, move forward with, recreating the wheel is not something that you need to be able to do. Like imagine getting data for an experiment. And you walk into the laboratory. And they say, All right, we need to be able to understand how to obtain this variable in this experiment. Okay, cool. Well, what systems do you have in place to figure out that variable? None. You have to figure out the system, and then you have to find out the variable, and that’s what your job is as a trainee to get there, that’s what. But or or you go into a laboratory. And they say, Oh, we’re studying this system. And you know, we want to apply to this system over here, and the tools we have are X, Y, and Z. Which one’s gonna be easier to get a publication? Probably the one where you already have the tools in place. The other one might be a bigger, better publication, more high impact, because you have to derive all that stuff. But it will also take significantly more work and more work generally means more time and more time generally means more time away from other things, and time away from other things means that you’re limited in what you’ll be able to accomplish.So you don’t. What I’m getting at here is you don’t have to start huge. You can start with what’s already been established, and build out from there. Learn the craft before you try and innovate in the craft. It’s like, you know, as a musician. One of the things that they say is like, if you’re jazz musician, how do you learn how to play jazz? And the first thing you do is you copy the solo, you get Miles Davis, you get Charlie Parker, and you learn how to just copy the solo so that way, if your solo comes up, that chord progression comes up. You can play that Charlie Parker lick. You can play that Terence Blanchard Lick. You can play whatever you know like that, Freddie Hubber, you can play. You play any of those licks on that chord progression and sound like you know what you’re playing, and it’s fine, because, like people, you know, people who don’t know what it is will be like Oh, that sounds great! And the trained ear, who knows who solo that is, they’ll also say that sounds great because they know what they know it. They know, you know you’re paying homage to the, to the leaders of the field right? And then what do you do after that? You do imitation. Okay, now, I got this Charlie Parker lick. I’m gonna add a little bit of embellishment. Here, I’m gonna transpose this. I’m gonna like, change it up a little bit. So you go from copy to imitation right now. Oh, man, your solo sounded just like this person, the articulation, and all that kind of thing, you know, like how you have your distortion on your guitar. All that stuff. You’re you’re you’re basically doing that. And then from there you go to innovation. Now, you’re actually leading the charge. You’re coming up with new styles, new hobbies, new ways of doing it, new programs, right? But you can’t start with the innovation step because you don’t know the history of what’s been happen- what’s happened at that particular place. Right? So when I say, like, you know, how can you get- when you say, like, how do you get started? How do you? You know, what can you do? Where do you start? Start with what’s known. Start with what people have done? U of A has a, you know, we’re a Hispanic serving institution. We have an office of Hispanic serving initiatives. We have some Native American serving initiatives as well. We’re a Land Grant serving institution. There are plenty of ways to get involved without having to reinvent the wheel and say, Well, I wanna make something new, right? Figure out what’s already in place. Figure out what’s already there. Figure out how you can help that before you say, okay, now, I’m just going to do my own thing because it’s it’s hard to go it alone. It’s really hard to go it alone, and that, I know that’s quoting a video game, you know. Here, take, hand you a sword now you’re Link from Zelda. But you know, like it’s it’s it’s hard to go it alone.

JP Flores: Yeah, no, I definitely agree. I feel like I’m learning so much from you. And it’s only been like, 50 minutes in. I think it’s amazing that you’ve been able to accomplish all the things that you have so far. I was wondering if you could reflect on that a little bit, and just talk about your feelings of, I guess gratefulness, or like, if you were to do like an acceptance speech for a really, a really big mentoring award or like a career award. What would you say in it? And it’s supposed to inspire the next generation of scientists

Michael Johnson: It’s supposed to inspire the- so, what do I want the dash on my tombstone to be? And I know that’s a bit morbid. But do I want them to say that he was a great scientist? Do I want them to say that he was a great mentor? Do I want them to say, use a little bit of both, all of the above all of this stuff? And you think about that particular dash right? And some people, it’s call- you know, some people call it a lot of different things like it can be like, what is the legacy that you want to leave behind on a place? Right? And you know I once had somebody say, Oh, you’re thinking of legacy way too early in your career. I’m like, it’s never too early to think about what legacy you want to leave. But I think that when you’re moving through this particular period, you have to really take a step back and try and figure out what you want out of it for yourself, and what you want out of it for others. And what I mean by that is, you know, there’s a certain level of reflection that leads you to then be intentional about what you want. And it’s fine to kind of fly through and kind of like, you know, say, well, I kind of fell into this, and a lot of people fall into the careers, and it’s wonderful. But if you have the opportunity to sit back and just reflect on what it is that you truly want to accomplish, not only in science, but also with your life and doing this, then you’ll at least have the direction of where to go to get there. And a lot of people are not intentional about what they want, and some of it is because they don’t know yet they haven’t been exposed to what their passion is yet, and that’s fine. But I would implore people to try and figure out what that is. And sometimes you can’t hear it unless your brain is silent. So be comfortable with that silence, that uncomfortable silence with yourself that you’re like actually having that conversation with yourself. And it’s not just on the, it’s not just on the bus ride into, you know, on the Jones ferry lot, you know, tram, or something like that, you know, you know, it’s not just, you know, I gotta catch the metal mop bus. And I’m gonna just like, put my headphone. It’s not just that. And I’m again, if you’re not, if you don’t know UNC, those are all like routes. But it’s really like actually scheduling some time and saying what do I want? How am I going to figure, not what do I want out of my science and like this experiment, but what do I see myself doing? How do I see myself engaging? What kind of citizen do I want to be in this particular space? What is that dash? What does it mean right? And what I can say is, you can start easier than that, than you know the whole philosophical breakdown of like oh, my gosh! Where am I, metaphysical, whatever it is but you you can, you can start that process by being intentional about your current set of needs. So many people say I want this. Or I, you know. What, what do you want? Oh, man, I just need help. Well, what kind of help do you need in the laboratory? Oh, man, just be great! If I had some help. Okay, well, what? What kind of help do you need? Well, another set of hands. Another set of hands to do what? Or I’d be great if I had some money. Money to do what? It’d be great if I had more time. Time to do what? So, being intentional about how you’re spending your time, your day and doing and living through those particular events helps you be, build that on on that on that level of to the other things that you want to be able to do with your career. So I reflect on that a lot. I want to be, I want my dash to mean that I was a great mentor. You know that, and that, so when I come full circle, that’s what I want it to mean. I want it to mean that I brought people to the scientific table. It’d be great if I made some great discoveries along the way and contributed to science. But I want it to mean that I helped create an environment in where other people could do science and feel accepted. Other people could do science and feel confident other people could do science, and they could just, then help others do science, I mean. And it just becomes this, you know, this, this web of, you know, people kind of coming into the discipline, not just to say that they’re there, but to really expose them to what I think is one of the coolest things that you can do. And that I mean that’s my personal opinion about doing science. I mean I absolutely love what I do, like this career choice. I mean, it’s stressful. Of course. Of course, everything can be stressful. But what I get out of this is absolutely tremendous. and I want to be able to have gone through my life to be able to share that with others.

JP Flores: Well, thank you so much for that, because you’ve definitely done all that for me. Like as an informal mentor, think about that. All the different, like opportunities you’ve brought me. It’s awesome man. I think you’ve definitely accomplished that, especially in my situation. Yeah, let’s send the interview there, man I think that was amazing. That was a great ending. You’re making me rethink a lot of, a lot of the ways I do things. So thank you for that.

Michael Johnson: I’m glad. I know it’s, yeah, I know. I know it’s hard. It’s just it’s you know it’s and you know I would say that do not hold my views, and my, you know the things that I say here as absolute law, either. Right? You know I’m still learning to, these are things that I’ve experienced, things that I can help people hopefully. You know, you know, hopefully, what I’ve done is I make you think about what it is that you do and if I’ve if I’ve done that, then I’ve succeeded. You know I don’t wanna tell people what to do or how to do it, but I do want to make sure that you’re thinking through it a little bit more. You have a little bit more clarity. You have a little bit more tools in your toolbox to be able to analyze, or, you know, help yourself in given situations. So yeah, if I’d done that, then I’ve succeeded.

JP Flores: And you have. Yeah. And I’m just trying to be a mural of everyone I talk to man. So that’s a big reason why I’m doing this, and so I can get word out. But also just you know, take all the conversations I have and try to instill in others. So yeah, thank you so much. I would like to stay in touch. I know you’re a very busy person, but I feel like we’ll see each other soon at some point. Yeah, hopefully you know, like maybe like we can invite you for like a seminar or something, bring you back to to North Carolina. Get you on that Jones ferry bus or something?

Michael Johnson: Yeah, it’s been a while since I’ve been. When was the last time I was at North Carolina. Hmm! It was pre pandemic. It was like, I think, yeah, I think I gave. I was a keynote speaker at like I, the IMSD Symposium, and then the day biochemistry, biophysics had their retreat, and I spoke at that as well.

JP Flores: We’ll bring you back. We got, we have a Dr. Chrystal Starbird out here, too. We’ll we’ll get yeah, so we’ll we’ll we’ll invite you out. Don’t worry. I’ve been wanting to invite you out for a while, so it’ll be great man. But it’s been an honor meeting you, and I don’t want to take up too much of your time. So yeah, man. Thank you so much for doing this. Nice meeting you.

Michael Johnson: Alright, have a good one.

JP Flores: Bye, you, too.