Getting Everyone to their Destination: Dr. Lyric Jorgenson

In this episode, I interviewed Dr. Lyric Jorgenson, the Associate Director of Science Policy and the Director of the Office of Science Policy at the National Institutes of Health (NIH).

Per the ⁠NIH Office of Science Policy website⁠, she provides senior leadership in the development and oversight of cross-cutting biomedical research policies and programs considered to be of high-priority to NIH and the United States Government.

Prior to this role, she served in numerous roles across the agency, including Deputy Director of the Office of Science Policy, and has led the development of numerous high impact science and policy initiatives such as the Brain Research through Advancing Innovative Neurotechnologies (BRAIN) Initiative and the National Center for Advancing Translational Sciences (NCATS). Dr. Jorgenson also served as the Deputy Executive Director of the White House Cancer Moonshot Task Force in the Office of the Vice President in the Obama administration, where she directed and coordinated cancer-related activities across the Federal government and worked to leverage investments across sectors to dramatically accelerate progress in cancer prevention.

Lyric received a doctorate degree from the Graduate Program for Neuroscience at the University of Minnesota-Twin Cities where she conducted research in neurodevelopment with a focus on learning and memory systems. She earned a Bachelor’s degree in Psychology from Denison University.

For more information on the work that the NIH Office of Science Policy does, check out their ⁠LinkedIn⁠ & ⁠Twitter/X⁠ accounts!

Transcription

Transcribed by Katie Clough (she/her)

JP Flores: Alright. Yeah. So it’s a podcast. So again, I can edit whatever you need out of it. I’ll send it to you first, st so that you know you can hear it and make sure you didn’t say anything. You didn’t want to say but yeah, I usually start these off with a short autobiography. So would you mind telling me your name? Educational journey where you are now, and what you’ve been up to.

Lyric Jorgenson: I’m lyric, Jorgensen. I am the Associate Director for Science Policy at the National Institutes of Health. I’m also the director of the Office of Science Policy at the National Institutes of Health, where I have been for now 15 years. Not in that role, in a variety of roles that I have taken on over the years. I am a native of the Midwest. I was born in Wisconsin, but then we moved around a lot. So I’ve been on the east coast and back in the Midwest for a while. And have found myself back on the East coast in Washington, DC.

JP Flores: Thank you. How are you liking DC. compared to the Midwest? I’m sure it’s a huge culture shock. What are the biggest differences you think?

Lyric Jorgenson: There are quite a few differences. So yes, my in-laws live in Minnesota, and my father lives in Illinois, so I spend a lot of time in the Midwest. I am always surprised by how many people at the grocery store are interested in chatting with you. My mother has told me I’m not allowed to honk my horn when I’m in town, because midwesterners don’t honk. I don’t believe that that is true. I have driven in Chicago. But, I would say that the pace of life is really focused often, at least in the smaller towns, on family, and and how you spend your time. Or I find that in the in the DC area, especially, a lot of it is around your career and your engagement in that sphere, at least in the sphere I operate in.

JP Flores: Definitely. So would you mind painting a picture of who you are? Like how were you raised? Were you always, you know, into science? What were your upbringings like? And you know, how did that play a role in in getting you to where you are now? In science policy?

Lyric Jorgenson: Yeah, I’m very fortunate to have had a a really good upbringing. My father is a PhD. Chemist who came into the corporate sphere, and in industry, and raised up through the ranks and to CEO of some organizations. My mom very fortunately, was a stay at home, mom. So she was really interested in me, exploring everything. I did participant in science camp and sports. I was the only girl on an all boys soccer team for 10 years, which is probably informed my sense of humor at this at this stage of life. But I was definitely not interested in science as a child. I was very much interested in math, but I’ve always been more on the literature side. I did want to be an astronaut as a child, which is hilarious if you’ve ever seen me laying on the floor of the metro, trying to not get motion sick. That would have been a very poor career path for me. But I did really wanna go into English. So I was an English major in college and was very fortunate that in college when I was planning on going to law school, I had a psychology professor who was super interested in neuroscience, and it was unfortunately, the 1st time I’d ever learned about neuroscience was in college. I know a lot of people are learning in this in elementary school now, but I learned what a neuron was in college and thought it was the coolest thing I had ever learned about in my life. And I really just wanted to learn more. So I decided to go to graduate school to study neuroscience, which was really amazing. I’d never had a biology class before going to grad school, so that was a little rough for me. I had to take some fundamentals of biology while I was taking advanced neuroscience and more. But it was just so amazing to see how the brain worked and how people were studying that inside a human being and in an animal model. So that’s really what drove my career path.

JP Flores: Yeah, that’s that’s awesome. And now you’re here combining the two things right? You have, like the more humanity side of things and the science. So did you ever think you’d end up in science policy? And when did you even realize what science policy is?

Lyric Jorgenson: It’s an it’s an excellent question. I certainly did not think I would end up in science policy, because I certainly did not know what science policy was. I didn’t know. It was a career path. I think a lot of people, especially a decade ago, did not know what this path was. I really got interested in science policy in grad school. So I started working with the NICU, this is this is a theme for me mentors and and people who’ve really been inspirational and visionary have really helped guide and shape my path. I had a mentor and an advisor who was a neonatologist, and so he was spending a lot of his time in the NICU with babies performing emergency care. He was also a researcher, but so when I would go to conferences with him and meet other physicians. They would talk about research and and didn’t really know what the ongoing research was which was really surprising to me, given that they were treating patients. But it it dawned on me, finally, they were busy treating patients. They were treating dying babies. They were working with mothers who had traumatic births. And they really needed some sort of consolidated set of information. They’re not gonna read 1,000 articles on pubmed that night. They’ve gotta treat their patients so the interface of “how do we consolidate scientific information into something that is practical, useful, and actionable?” really started to drive me at that stage of graduate school, and really then had me seeking out these opportunities. For how do we communicate science to people so that they can do something with it.

JP Flores: Yeah. And is that how you would define science policy? Do you have like a, you know, like, like a pocket definition for it? Or how’d you define science policy.

Lyric Jorgenson: I typically define- So, what I was really gravitating towards more, I think, was around health policy. And now, in this stage of my career, I understand that the nuances a little differently. In science policy, I really think this is where we’re defining some of the guideposts and the rules of the road to help science proceed ethically and responsibly. And it’s important for people to understand, I think people think of policy a lot of times like speed limits and stop signs and ways that are hindering science from progressing. But actually, it’s allowing everyone to get to their destination in a way that is, implementable and adoptable. So science, for the sake of science, without those ethical guidelines, means it might not get adopted and incorporated into society. And I think we saw some of this exacerbated by the Covid pandemic, where in record time we had a covid vaccine in under a year. But people had not been brought along, and people didn’t trust the science necessarily. And so we didn’t have effective public health measures because people were resistant to it. So how do we make people trust science along the way, so that when it is delivered it is actually improving society, as we intend it to do.

JP Flores: Right. Yeah. So as a graduate student at UNC, I haven’t had a lot of exposure to to science policy. And you know some of my labmates they’ll talk about industry science. I still don’t know what that is. And knowing what you know now, how do you think we can better prepare aspiring scientists with an inclination toward science policy? How can we like. get institutions to embed this type of training in in our curricula? Have you thought about that at all? Or what do you wish you had when you were a student?

Lyric Jorgenson: I know I was very fortunate, again, to have a really supportive environment at the University of Minnesota. Where once I started to understand, this is the path I wanted to take, I started to get more involved in at least local governance. Understanding how governance works. I think a lot of scientists when they get into policy, think it’s “I am smart in science, and I will tell people how science works, and that’s how we will act”. Policy it incorporates science, but also incorporates public values, public attitudes, and financial decisions, and more. And so I think, from the the grad school level or the undergraduate school level, first of all, understanding how governance works. How you bring people together to consensus. Understanding how to negotiate and compromise, which is key, is one skill set. And the other part is to be able to talk about your science in a way that is understandable and digestible. I was really fortunate to work with Joe Biden about, now 8 years ago, ugh I’ve been there a long time. About 8 years ago, at the cancer moonshot where he would tell me, he said “you know, if the people in the back of the room aren’t nodding their heads along with you, you’re not making your point”. So trying to be very precise and sound very smart, if nobody understands you, it defeats the purpose. So back to your question of how would I really adopt this? I would embed at least some more effective engagement and communication into graduate programs so that people know how to communicate what they’re doing. Because again, most of these programs are working off of tax dollars as well and in local communities. And then also more about how governance and and policy works to guide science.

JP Flores: So it’s wild, because when I first met you and then the first couple of meetings with you, you brought up “yeah, I talked to Joe Biden”. And to me as someone who’s a first generation student from LA, it’s like “Whoa, like you were able to talk to the President!”. And it just makes me wonder, you know, what are your days in the life like? Do you just have a bunch of meetings all day? Do you get to travel to the White House you know, between there and Rockledge? What is a day in the life like for you?

Lyric Jorgenson: I mean, I always start out my day with a really solid plan of what it will look like. But you never quite know what will happen. So one of my biggest priorities is, as you know, that people should know who’s listening is we have a team of at least 60 policy professionals who really make the world go round. So I try to spend most of my day interacting with them so that we can keep this beautiful bicycle moving forward because they’re really the drivers of all of this. So I try to spend a lot of time working with them helping guide the priorities and set the decision making. But I do spend a lot of time responding to whatever the urgent need is. And we never know, this is the fun part but also it causes the heartburn, we never know when the next scientific advance might come, right? But for those who are in Hong Kong, and had heard about the genetically engineered twins, that changes the day. Or obviously, bird flu being transmissible into to cow milk, that changes your day. So these are kind of some of the emerging things that just can throw off the entire plan, and you have to be ready to pivot. I think the biggest challenge for me is making sure that our team can continue making progress on the priorities that are important for sustainability, while still responding to these things that happen all the time, and making sure we’re communicating it and dealing with it effectively.

JP Flores: Yeah, it’s so freaking cool. I don’t know, I just love hearing all these different things about what the day in the life of a someone in science policy. So in graduate school, something that a lot of people talk to us about is finding mentors, and that has been a theme for you throughout your journey, right? These mentors that have, you know, shown you the way. Does science policy have a similar thing? Because, you know, it’s not necessarily academia. But I think a lot of people in science policy are coming from academia. So have you thought about how you can implement this type of mentorship structure in science policy? Is that something that is important, or what are your thoughts there?

Lyric Jorgenson: I mean, this is one of the things that is critically important to me. I fundamentally believe that mentors are amazing in any profession and any life stage. I also, though think that, as you know, trying to figure out, how do you establish people? Just tell you what this is and what your options are, and that also, as a science policy person, it feels like you’re diving off a cliff when you’re leaving academia. But it’s somebody tells you, like you’re not making any wrong decisions, that the paths are endless. And any choice you make is probably a fine choice and good for you. So I’ve been thinking about, how do we promote mentorship into the community? Again, as I’ve been super fortunate by many policy mentors, and science mentors, and communicators, and public health professionals. So we are trying to develop new internships in our office and also figure out how to create chains of mentorship and communities of mentorship, because the path I’ve taken and the experience I have are mine, and there are so many other ways. Again, you can come to the government and learn about science policy and bring that back to academia, and that still can make you a better scientist, and all of those are great paths to take. So we are thinking about how to get outside of the beltway, as we would say inside the beltway and bring science policy and that kind of mentorship, especially in the virtual environment, all over. So I get a lot of calls about what is this? We make connections locally. Obviously, there’s programs like the AAAS science technology policy fellowship, and so I think it’s really become a robust infrastructure to help people find their path.

JP Flores: And you mentioned the cancer moonshot initiative earlier. And I was told that wasn’t the only big role you’ve had in things at the NIH. I know you played a role in the creation of the National Center for Advancing Translational Sciences or NCATS, and even the brain initiative. So can you tell these listeners: what these initiatives were, and what roles did you play in these?

Lyric Jorgenson: So this is my favorite thing to do, policy again being multiple things, it sounds like creating rules right? Policy is a lot of- creating rules for the sake of rulemaking is not very useful. We’re trying to build coalitions to achieve some sort of success. So in some of these programs we’ve made, these are these large initiatives that have policy components, consensus making components. And this is my favorite thing to do. I love building stuff when it comes along, and especially with somebody visionary. So NCATS, and the brain initiative, and cancer moonshot, all were under Francis Collins when he was the director here. And he, as you know, is a ginormously big bold thinker. So that made that really inspiring. So, starting with my first effort, was on the NCATS, which was the first center created at NIH that was created for an internal need. So NCATS was really thinking about the process of bringing basic science into a discovery, right? So we talk about discovering for the sake of knowledge. But how do you turn that into something? And how you do that is, as probably many people know, is complex and fraught with challenges. So NCATS was designed to make how we do that, a scientific inquiry, right? So actually studying the science of moving translation through. So this was a big idea that Dr. Collins had back in his time, along with a bunch of additional smart people. And so he was really interested in making this happen. It sounds easy. The director wants to make an institute. It is not. You would need congress to support you, you need congress to give you a budget, you need to create its mission, it’s scope. Make sure it’s not wasting money and duplicating somebody else’s mission, especially when the private sector does translation all the time. So, what is the unique role NCATS fits in here? So I was really really fortunate to be on the ground up of this working with our advisory committees to craft its scope and then I ended up being, working in NCATS for a year, with its inaugural director, Dr. Chris Austin, as his special assistant to really form his leadership team, form his scientific divisions, and really start the blueprint for what is now a flourishing, beautiful center under Dr. Joni Rutter. And then after that came the brain initiative, which is frankly one of my favorite things I’ve ever gotten to do as a neuroscientist actually.

JP Flores: Yeah.

Lyric Jorgenson: I haven’t talked a lot about neuroscience as a neuroscientist. But this was really really fascinating. President Obama saw the mystery and promise of the brain, and wanted to really galvanize the scientific community to make some real inroads here. So we again, as you’ve heard, created a committee. It’s a very bureaucratic government thing to say, but it’s really important, because it’s the power of bringing people together to generate a new idea. So from that, again, we developed its blueprint and its roadmap. But this was really cool, because the Defense Department’s DARPA initiative came in, The National Science Foundation, and private sector partners came in to really figure out, “how do we catalyze this intersection of biology and engineering to give people the tools and technologies to make these leaps forward?”. And that’s how you know, we talk about tools like optogenetics or others that really transform the way we do science. So that was just an amazing fun day, especially as a junior policy person to hear The President read a speech that you wrote in The White House was just an incredibly moving and exciting moment. And then from there I got some, you know, really my feet wet on how to build these initiatives. So I was asked, at the time Vice President Biden, to join the White House. Which I did for his last year under the Obama administration to really think about his cancer moonshot. And that was really, “how do you work across the entirety of the Federal Government and the private sector, and, importantly, with patients to make cancer a more manageable tackable disease?”.

JP Flores: Yeah. And these were massive projects! And I’ve always wondered how Lyric never burns out. Or I mean, maybe you do burn out? Maybe you do, I have no idea right? So.

Lyric Jorgenson: I really wish my husband was here right now. He’s like, really? You don’t think she burns out? Yeah.

JP Flores: Well, you mask it really well. So how do you combat that burnout? And maybe even some imposter syndrome, right? Because you’re dealing with so many different people.

Lyric Jorgenson: Absolutely.

JP Flores: So many experts in different fields.

Lyric Jorgenson: Absolutely. I think this is one of the challenges, especially being in academia and being a scientist, you defend your thesis, and you are, I would say I, arguably, one of the smartest people in the world on this topic. Right? You will feel, you have the knowledge base to be able to answer any question about any component of that piece. In the science policy world, I might be talking about biosecurity, I might be talking about cancer, I might be talking about CRISPR, I am never, even going to be remotely close, to the smartest person in the room. And that’s why, again, we bring together these committees and groups. Because you want that collective expertise. So the part for me, I think I have become really now a junkie, in terms of loving this diversity and bringing people together to help augment the the expertise. But in terms of when I was younger, it used to be living for that moment. And then you probably get this right, like I’ll do 24 hours a day to study for that final. I’ll do, you know, burnout, to get to the thesis defense, and I did that with those projects “well, it’s for President Obama, I mean I’ve got to do it”. And then the next project happens, and then you find yourself 5 years later, like, “Wait a minute”. So now, as I’ve gotten a little further along, there are key markers in my life. So I will go to Pilates three times in every week. Like I will not schedule meetings during my Pilates, because if I don’t start setting those markers, you start to lose and you burn out if you don’t take care of your health.

JP Flores: Right. Yeah, it’s drawing boundaries with your schedule. I feel like, I think, as a graduate student, it’s so hard because I feel like I need to be involved with all these different things. But I just started working out again, and I’m not going to lie, it has done wonders. I need to work on the sleep thing, but yeah.

Lyric Jorgenson: Well, this used to be the running joke, because again, there are a lot of people who have a lot of energy. Our new Dr. Collins and Dr. Bertagnolli both are mentally energetic people. I am a solid 8 hours sleeper, and any hour less than that you can tell. So for me, like exercise and sleep are the pillar anchors of my day to not make me more of a lunatic than I currently am.

JP Flores: Yeah. So I’ve had former director, Francis Collins on this podcast before, as you know. And when I mentioned science policy to him, you were the first person he named. And I wanted to tell you that because, I didn’t know if I’ve actually told you that before while I was in your office, but you’re the very first person. And, as you know, I ended up as an intern in your office, working on several initiatives regarding clinical research engagement. And from your perspective, can you tell the listeners about these two initiatives that we’ve been able to work on engage and create? Actually, are we allowed to talk about, create? Yeah, right?

Lyric Jorgenson: You could talk about that, yeah that’s fine.

JP Flores: Yeah. yeah, there is.

Lyric Jorgenson: Especially yeah, especially in the government, I know everything is digestible by the public at some point in time and happy to talk more about it. This initiative, these initiatives are really exciting. I’m really proud of the work we’ve been doing here. They are a convergence of multiple challenges we’re trying to solve. So one, I’ll tell you, one of the priorities I have as a policy maker is thinking about, how do we modernize policy making? So as you’re talking about people don’t know what science policy is. They don’t know what it is, they certainly don’t know how to affect it. And so how do we talk about this? And how do we engage people in average policy making? So things like, when you are you wearing your fitbit device, or you’re using your phone, people are collecting information about you. And that’s for the public good at some level. But how do you feel about that? How do you want your information used? And what do you expect back from when your information is used that way? So those are questions that we’re thinking about in terms of research data. So, the way we do this typically, is we write up a draft policy proposal, and we ask the world to comment on it. Again, that requires you knowing we do that. That required you being interested and sitting down and commenting on our proposal. All of these things that are still valuable to the process, but we have new ways of communicating with humans. We have new ways of interacting with humans, especially with technology. So how do we leverage that to really understand people’s values, attitudes, and more? And especially as society is evolving, we don’t think about just you. How do you want your data use? How does that affect your subsequent generations? or your communities? So these are information we are trying to collect. So from that, I really wanted to modernize. How do I do that? How do I ask every single American in this country what do they think about my policy? It’s probably not achievable. So that’s the goal I’m trying to tackle. And from that we’ve been pioneering these models of going into communities and hosting sessions to where we really get into the conversations. In parallel, of course, NIH has a clinical research portfolio. Again, this is where treatments and and science meet actual human beings “hey, come participate in the clinical trial and let’s see if this works”. That’s kind of a scary enterprise, but also fundamental for scientific discovery. So we were talking with some patient advocates who said, “Listen, NIH is a big place. There are 27 institutes and centers. They have different disease missions, different life stages, and that’s very important. But how do we, as an average person, interact with you, NIH, on clinical research?” And it’s an excellent question, you shouldn’t have to know “well, if it’s about arthritis, I want to go to Lindsey Criswell’s Institute”, right? That’s just that’s not realistic. So, working with patient advocates, we thought, talked about how do we do this more effectively? How do we tap in to the public? Ask them, what do they think about clinical research? Sometimes that is, bringing more people into studies. And sometimes that’s saying “I get what you’re doing there and I’m not interested”. And both answers are fine. So we brought together, again moral of the story a committee, to think about how does NIH do this? How do we talk to real people? And the answer isn’t, “hey I’m from the government, and I’m fancy, and I’m smart, and so listen to me” right? The answer is more of the “hey JP, you are in North Carolina, and you have these communities and people trust you. And how do we talk about this in a way that they’ll get?” So that’s what create is trying to do. It’s trying to create a framework for NIH to engage people in clinical research, what they think about it, and how they can have a voice in the design of it. So that’s an external group of a bunch of, gosh you probably know more than I do, it’s maybe 25 people at this point in time.

JP Flores: Something like that.

Lyric Jorgenson: It’s a huge group! It’s very amazing. And so they’re the ones who are on the outside. They’re in communities, they’re in churches, and community centers, and more having these conversations. In the internal side, in the government. Right? We have a bunch of people who have been doing this for a while and been doing it really creatively and in cool ways. The All of Us program, the SEAL program that’s been thinking about Covid, they pioneered a lot of these approaches so they’re coming together and also trying to bring together their best practices to share. So we can collectively learn how to do this.

JP Flores: Yeah. And you’ve hinted at this before, but what are some of your favorite things about science policy? Is it the dynamic nature of it? Is it bringing people together? Or can you actually pinpoint what it is like? If you could, if you could advertise it to people on a billboard like science, policy is blank, blank, blank…

Lyric Jorgenson: My goodness! I think, well, the dynamic nature of it is amazing, but it is like science itself. I think that’s probably what it is. So in science, you know, you identify a problem that needs to be solved. And then you take an empirical study to do so. There are rules to science at some level. You take approach to generate evidence, to determine what the path forward is. And then, once you figured out the path forward. You then communicate it to the world to try to affect change. And that’s what science policy is, regardless of any topic, at least from you know- policy can have many components, but in the science policy world science informs and data informs how we make decisions. And for me, that is the coolest aspect is using evidence to make decisions, and I think that that is really guided me.

JP Flores: Yeah. And on the flip side of that, what do you think are, you know, your not so favorite things about science policy? Is it the constant just “oh, my gosh! I need to change- I need to change the course of the ship right away!” Or what is it?

Lyric Jorgenson: I think the the hardest thing for me and terrible to say on your podcast is- Science policy, again, if you want to impact people, you have to interact with multiple people. And nobody has the same opinion. So almost every single day, I think, I’m trying to remember how Jesse told me to start talking about it, but every day is arguing, right? Like every day is, you know “I have to hear your perspective”, and “I have to incorporate”, and “I have to change my position”. And so, knowing when to compromise, knowing when to fight for your position every day, to try to chart the right course. You are never going to be right. You’re never going to be 100% right. You will always have to compromise and figure out how to make those trade offs. And that is, I think, you spend a good share of your day trying, compromising, which, if you like to win, compromising is hard.

JP Flores: I mean, that’s just a human thing right?

Lyric Jorgenson: But it’s the hallmark skill of this job: being able to figure out how to compromise and recognizing where to do so. I think it’s like, you know, Kenny Rogers, knowing to fold them, knowing to hold them.

JP Flores: Yeah, yeah, I have a question later about music, so let’s see if Kenny Rogers pops up again. Alright, so this is the last serious question. Let’s say you are meeting 1st year undergraduate JP, and he comes up to you and is like: “Hey Lyric, science policy… How do I even begin?” Like where would you point me?

Lyric Jorgenson: I mean, I would certainly start, one of the biggest things I think in science policy is also having conversations and networking with people. I would certainly always recommend saying, “let’s introduce you to 3 people who do this”. “Let’s figure out what part of science policy you gravitate toward what you’re interested in” because it is so big. At NIH, we talked about the policy I do. There’s also people who run programs and and make decisions about how their programs run, that’s science policy. There are people who work in advocacy organizations who think about how to be on Capitol Hill and talk about it. So there’s so many different types of science policy. So you, as an undergrad, I would say, “let’s figure out what energizes you, and let’s figure out how to get people in your area of energy to help craft what might be the most exciting opportunity”. I think that’s would be my my answer, as you know, I’m like, “come, play with us!”.

JP Flores: Yeah.

Lyric Jorgenson: Because I think the balance, again, is we do take mentorship seriously. But we also learn from the people who are in Academia. The people who are working in it, we learn from you. And you’ve taught us a lot in our office. And so keeping that creative energy coming through our team is really important.

JP Flores: Yeah, definitely. And I really wanna emphasize the mentorship I received in your office. I’ve had just amazing people with me. You, Jess Query, Alyssa Meister, Thomas, Miriam, Jessica. I’ve had a truly great time, and I would really recommend the internship in OSP with anyone. Another thing, too, is, I’m going to a bunch of different HBCUs on the East coast, and a lot of people have been asking me to talk about science policy. So I’m excited to, you know, just share this podcast and other people I interview about science policy as well.

Lyric Jorgenson: And and thank you for doing this! So this is one of those things that I think we have been focusing on to try to make better, but are not there. Because science policy again, it is something that if you’ve heard about it, you might be interested in it. But that requires you hearing about it, and because it is so rooted in networks that can become a little more familial. And so we want to, we have to get- it’s that passive distribution of information. Instead of actively seeking out those who might not be in the know and might not be in the loop. And so we want to elevate that equity component of access to this. Because, again, at our level of federal policy, making our policies affect the entirety of the American population. So we strive to have people with the experiences of the entire American population making science policy to bring that diversity to the table. And I think with science policy, it’s, to your point, getting it into the institutions more equitably instead of well, you know, “those institutions know about the fellowship, and that’s where we get all our interns from”.

JP Flores: Right, yeah.

Lyric Jorgenson: And that’s the other part of- so the internship, when we launched it, one of the keys we wanted to make of it were two components, one that it could be virtual because it’s unreasonable to ask an undergrad or a grad student to relocate to DC for 3 months, because it’s not cheap. That’s another difference between the midwest. And also that it’s paid. Because one you are providing a service, and two who can afford to go 3 months without a a paycheck. That’s an equity issue.

JP Flores: Definitely. Alright, ou ready to move on to some fun questions and close it out?

Lyric Jorgenson: Probably the hard one!

JP Flores: Yeah, well, I don’t know. I feel like I can predict some of these, maybe. Actually, I don’t know. We’ll see. Alright, so, let’s say that you can add another thing under your belt. You just started a new let’s say a brand new NIHIC ,a new NIH Institute. And we’re partying, and things like that. And the DJ is like, “Alright Lyric, what song do you want to play right now to celebrate?”. What would you play?

Lyric Jorgenson: Oh, my gosh! That’s such a hard question! A celebration song…

JP Flores: I thought it was going to be Taylor Swift but..

Lyric Jorgenson: I mean… honestly, I probably would pick Queen.

JP Flores: Ahhhhh

Lyric Jorgenson: What were you gonna go for?

JP Flores: I was gonna, I was gonna go Taylor Swift, shake it off, but I’m just a swifty

Lyric Jorgenson: Oh my goodness, well..

JP Flores: Or like a Bruno Mars song. But, Queen. I could dance to like. “Don’t stop me now”, or something.

Lyric Jorgenson: Yeah, that’s good. Yeah.

JP Flores: Yeah, yeah,

Lyric Jorgenson: I mean, obviously Taylor Swift is definitely on the radar. I think I might pick Karma from Taylor swift.

JP Flores: Oh!

Lyric Jorgenson: Yeah.

JP Flores: Do you play any instruments at all? Are you musical like Francis or?

Lyric Jorgenson: Ha like Francis.. During, right before the pandemic hit I did start guitar lessons.

JP Flores: Oh nice!

Lyric Jorgenson: It was fun. Another running joke among my friends, I started guitar lessons at the kids school. If you heard like the “Back to Rock”and whatnot. I was the only grown up in the kids school. These, like 8 year olds, are coming in, and I’m coming with my guitar. I did not get as far as I would like. The pandemic hit, and so I tried to start doing more of the self taught. So I can play a few things, but I’m certainly, I’m not ready for a public debut. Despite, if you’ve seen the Back to Rock, they have the end of the summer show. And so all my friends wanted to come and watch me with all the 8 year old, playing my guitar on stage. Which would have been something.

JP Flores: Wait, that’s awesome. What are your favorite things to do outside of your work at the NIH.

Lyric Jorgenson: So I love being outdoors. The pandemic also turned me into a gardener, which is something I never thought, I always thought I was going to be a high rise Manhattan person. And now I’m obsessed with gardening. I love going to concerts and shows. Concerts are probably my favorite activity. And I go to almost anything anyone invites me to, regardless of how absurd it is. And then I also really like hiking. My husband and I are avid hikers.

JP Flores: Yes. Is there a lot of hiking in DC? I don’t know, I’m not familiar with that area at all, so I wouldn’t know.

Lyric Jorgenson: I’d say, DC, this is one of the beautiful things, in my opinion, is it’s a packed, overcrowded city, with tons of parks and areas to hike around in. So we hike quite a bit in the area. And then Pennsylvania is just a little bit away, West Virginia is a little bit away with really amazing hiking and The Appalachian trail. So yeah, we have, there’s quite a bit.

JP Flores: And do you have any music recommendations? Cause I’m also like, I love concert going. I mean, I play a lot of shows in the area. I’m a local artist here in Carrboro, North Carolina. So I’m just curious. Do you have any recommends for music?

Lyric Jorgenson: So in terms of music I really enjoy, so I almost always have, like a top 5 of my favorite artists. So Florence + The Machine. I just think she is just amazing.

JP Flores: Love Florence + the Machine, yep.

Lyric Jorgenson: Pearl Jam, Queen, Prince, Taylor Swift, it’s fine. Lionel. Richie. Lionel Rich is one of my, he puts on an amazing show. I went to Minnesota to go to their State Fair to see Lionel Richie. But then there’s some really fun performers. So Chromeo tours quite a bit. They are an amazing show to see. The Eels, they shoot ice cream cones out of T-shirt cannons.

JP Flores: The Eels?

Lyric Jorgenson: These are all older, right? But yeah, they’re just fun shows where the crowd gets really excited and energized. I think I saw Rick Astley, which I didn’t even know he still performed. He’s like an 80s singer, but he is just out there, and really. So just any show, I think, is really fun. The 930 club in in DC is really a good place to see them, and The Anthem, now that it’s opened.

JP Flores: Alright last fun question, and then I’ll let you go off on your busy Friday. What is your favorite type of food or cuisine? And why? Is it because, you know you just love the flavors, or is it because it brings you back home?

Lyric Jorgenson: So, I have been a vegetarian since I was 15 years old.

JP Flores: Oh, I didn’t know that.

Lyric Jorgenson: And I’m actually really, I really prefer ethnic food. I really love Ethiopian. Ethiopian is my favorite. My husband is always encouraging me to find anyone who wants to eat it with me, because he is not a fan.

JP Flores: It’s so good though.

Lyric Jorgenson: It’s so delicious!

JP Flores: We have an Ethiopian food truck. Yeah, it’s really good.

Lyric Jorgenson: It is so delicious. I will go any chance I can. And I really love Indian food. And then I’d say pizza is probably a staple in our house, but I do not cook. That is one of the sacrifices I make in terms of my days. I do not go to the grocery store, and I do not cook. So you know. yeah.

JP Flores: Awesome. Alright. Well, lyric, this has been really fun. I’m glad that this was your first, podcast ever.

Lyric Jorgenson: Yes.

JP Flores: You unbearingly hard for you. But yeah, no, that was that was great. Here, let me finish the pop. This thing.