Hearing it from the Top: Dr. Neali Lucas

In this episode, I interviewed Dr. Neali Lucas. She has been at the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) for 14 years, where she is currently the Senior Science Advisor in the Office of the Commissioner, Office of the Chief Scientist. She was the first African-American scientist to graduate from her graduate program at the University of Michigan in 2007, and we had a rich discussion about equity and inclusion in STEM and the importance of hearing about how important these topics are from the top.

Transcription

Transcribed by Gelila Petros (she/her)

JP: What’s up y’all? It’s your host, JP Flores, and welcome to From where does it STEM?

[music]

JP: Neali, just tell me about yourself. Let’s hear an autobiography, you know. Where were you born? What were your upbringings like? How’d you get into science, give us the whole spiel. Get on your soapbox.

Dr. Lucas: Alright. Well, thank you so much for having me. I was born in Chicago, Illinois. I lived there until I was about 5 years old, and then at that point, we moved to a suburb right outside of the city. And you know I had a typical 80s kid upbringing, playing outside with my friends, riding bikes. I was involved in lots of different extracurricular activities: dance, cheer, all that good stuff.

JP: Nice!

Dr. Lucas: And you know, my parents worked very hard to allow us to have those opportunities. My dad was a bus driver for the Chicago Transit Authority. My mom had a career in social work. And she had a non-traditional path to getting her bachelor’s degree, and was one of the first in her family to get her degree.

JP: Oh wow.

Dr. Lucas: My parents very much emphasized the importance of education. So as far as my interest in STEM, I’ll say, starting probably in middle school, I had some teachers that noticed that I had a talent for it, and took the time to encourage me in that way. And then moving into high school, I had a teacher, Miss Westland, who taught my biology class in freshman year. And again, she was very encouraging to me as somebody who had ability and interest in the STEM field. She very much encouraged me to move along in that path. So that is pretty much what led me to get a bachelor’s degree from University of Illinois, and moving into a STEM field.

JP: Which Illinois? Cause I know there’s a lot of them.

Dr. Lucas: University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign, UIUC.

JP: Gotcha. Cool. So that was your undergraduate training. What about your doctoral? So I know, I think you went to Michigan, if I’m not mistaken.

Dr. Lucas: That’s correct, that’s correct.

JP: So how was your time there?

Dr. Lucas: Yeah, so after I ultimately got my degree in biochemistry from University of Illinois and moved on to graduate school at University of Michigan, I did a basic research in signal transduction and transcriptional regulation in ovarian cancer for my research. I was very involved in different student organizations. Some [were] around shared identity, some around shared interest, and that was absolutely critical for my ability to to navigate through [grad school]. They provided camaraderie. They provided support. In some cases, they provided technical assistance to help me in the lab. So that was a big part of it. And so ultimately I got my degree in the molecular and cellular pathology program, and I was the first African American to get a degree in that program.

JP: Oh, wow! That’s amazing. And now you’re at the FDA.

Dr. Lucas: Yes, now I’m at the FDA. So before taking my role at the FDA, I was actually working as a medical writer. That was my first position outside of academia. And so in that role, I would put together different documents for submission to FDA. Things like clinical study protocols, clinical study reports, different parts of new drug applications, so different things that the FDA was going to take a look at. And so I was enjoying my departure from lab life. I liked the fact that I could see new clinical trials, I could see the results, and I would know that I was having a positive impact on bringing a new therapy to market. So I really enjoyed that and at the time that I was working there, actually, someone from the FDA was trying to recruit my husband at the time. And through that connection, I found out about, you know, working for FDA and some of the career opportunities that were there.

JP: Cool. So I’m currently interning with the NIH office of science policy at the moment. There are so many things in government that I had no idea were things, just like the regulations, my laptop, badge controls, like all these really cool things. And as an academic, these are things I just never really thought of and didn’t know existed. So what do you think are the biggest differences between, you know, academia and government? And after that question, I have so many things I wanna ask about, you know, early on in your career, but let’s start there, real quick.

Dr. Lucas: So yeah, I would say, differences between academia and government. One thing that’s similar is sometimes things can move a little slower. You know, I think with the government, there are lots of different opportunities, lots of different environments that you can engage in. I think one of the main things that’s different that attracted me is the applied nature of it. You know, when you’re in a lab, the time horizon on the impact of your work is long whereas when you’re working in government, you know day-to-day that what you’re doing really has a positive impact on people’s lives and welfare.

JP: Alright, cool. So tell me about your time being the first African American to graduate from your program. So I would imagine, did you feel a lot of pressure to do that? When did you find that out like, did you know that entering?

Dr. Lucas: That’s a really good question, I did not know that then, which is maybe a good thing. I actually was preparing to give a talk at work for Black History Month, and I was kind of preparing my notes, and it kind of occurred to me like, ‘I wonder if I was the first?’. And, you know, I reached back and found out that that was the case. So I did not have that pressure in real time, because I wasn’t aware.

JP: Wow! So was that like a, I mean, I’m sure it wasn’t like, it just happened. No one really thought about it maybe? Like they just didn’t want you to feel the pressure?

Dr. Lucas: I think no one was thinking about it, right?

JP: Right, ok.

Dr. Lucas: Minus me asking the question, they wouldn’t have thought of it.

JP: Yeah, so thinking about it now, how does it feel? ‘Cause for me, a huge thing for me is representation, right? If I can see someone in a position that I’m striving for that looks like me, I will feel inspired, and I will want to, you know, try to also get to where they are.

Dr. Lucas: Mm hmm.

JP: So when you think…when you look back at it like, can you talk about, you know do you feel…do you have feelings of pride? Like, what are…

Dr. Lucas: Yeah! I mean, absolutely [a] feeling of pride. And I’ll say that, you know, in terms of…obviously I was one of the few. I was the first African American. I was one of few students of color but when I was in graduate School at University of Michigan, I had a mentor, a woman, Dr. Jane Rubin, who was a postdoc in the department. And I think her example and her mentorship…she would provide me insights on, you know, ‘you need to apply for this fellowship’, or you know ‘you really need to get out there and present at conferences’, or you know, ‘okay, let me talk him through this tough situation’. ‘You need to have this conversation with your advisor, here’s how I approach it.’ So I think you know, having that support from her and others was important.

JP: Yeah. So I think mentorship, you just brought it up, it’s really important for a lot of different individuals. How has mentorship impacted you throughout your career? So you kind of gave an example in Michigan, but do you still get that at the FDA? Did you receive that as a college student?

Dr. Lucas: Yeah, yeah. So, I’ll start, I’m going [in] chronological order.

JP: Let’s do it!

Dr. Lucas: As far as not undergrad, I was very involved in a student organization, the National Organization of Black Chemists and Chemical Engineers, and there was a black woman who was working on her Ph.D. in chemistry at the time, Dr. Alvita Williams. And she was our grad advisor. And so, she was one of the first ones to say like, “no, you can really do this.” Like, I went into undergrad thinking, ‘I’m gonna get this degree ,I’m gonna go work, and that’s the end of the story’ right? Thinking about graduate school was not even on our radar for a couple of reasons. I think I just didn’t even have that self-concept, but also the financial piece of it was huge. So, as I learned like, ‘oh no, you can get a stipend to go to grad school,’ it just completely changed my concept. So I would say, you know, having Dr. Williams was very key in encouraging me, and giving me the information that I needed to move to the next step. And also very importantly, she introduced me to my husband who I met at the University of Michigan when I went to graduate school. So that’s undergrad. And in [the] FDA, you know, I mentioned I’m part of a uniformed service. I have additional opportunities for mentorship through the core. And I also have the opportunity to be a mentor to others, because, like through mentoring others, it actually refines and helps you to be a better professional. So I think it’s been important and I’ve been very fortunate in that regard.

JP: Yeah! So can you talk about mentorship at the FDA when you first started? Did you…did you receive that at all? Because my…in my office in the NIH, people are so freaking nice.

Dr. Lucas: Yeah!

JP: Like, so welcoming. They’re like, ‘oh, we know you’re gonna get bombarded by all these emails.’ But I’m curious, I’m sure other agencies are like that. So what does it look like?

Dr. Lucas: Yeah yeah! In my office, I think we had a very close knit group. We actually had an influx of…kind of a… a large amount of people that were hired at the same time. So we kind of supported each other, and there was a structured training environment.

JP: Like grad school…

Dr. Lucas: Yeah, I had mentoring from, you know, investigators who had been there for a while, who had kind of a similar area of specialization for me. And then there’s also a structured mentoring program that FDA offers as well.

JP: Awesome. So do you have a lot of… do you get to do a lot of science nowadays? Or…

Dr. Lucas: I do a lot of science! I guess it depends on how you define science.

JP: Alright, how would you… open to interpretation? How do you… how would you answer that question?

Dr. Lucas: Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, in my current role, I do several different initiatives. I support them and develop them around advancing FDA science, research, and innovation. So what on a practical level that might mean [is] on one day, I’m working with my colleagues and Office of the Chief Scientist to advise on clinical research that is conducted or supported by the agency. I might be preparing a manuscript for publication based on, you know, data from different approvals and things like that.

JP: Yea. Can you tell me about the impact of why this is important? ‘Cause I feel like there’s a good range of people that listen to this, and I think a lot of graduate students might understand what these approval forms might look like or why it’s important. But when I was an undergrad I had no idea what the FDA was, or what, you know, a position like yours, what people do? So can you explain? And can you pretend like you’re explaining to an undergrad? What is it that you do? What are these forms that you’re talking about?

Dr. Lucas: Yeah. So I would say in my… I’ll give an example from a previous role that I think anyone could relate to. So when I was initially working for the FDA, I was actually the one doing inspections right? So I would go and do on site assessments of facilities that were manufacturing biological products, for example. So we’re talking blood products for transfusion, tissue based-products that might be used for a dental implant and things like that. And so the whole thrust of those inspections is to make sure that those products are being manufactured in a way that the communicable disease risk for people who are gonna receive those products are lower. So you know… so I was a person who was doing those inspections. I was a person who managed teams that did those inspections. And, you know, when I had my second daughter, I had some serious complications that led me to need a blood transfusion. And actually, I received enough blood products to replace my total blood volume three and a half times, right? So when I woke up, okay, I’ve had these blood products transfused. And as a scientist, I realize there is a risk of communicable disease transmission. But I didn’t worry about that because of the work of the investigators that were on the team that I was leading at the time, and the work that’s done at the product centers around licensing blood facilities and ongoing surveillance. So that’s one example. Let me give a different example more on the clinical research side of things. So at the agency, you know, I think most people know that we make approval decisions. But also along with that, there are investigators that go and do inspections of the clinical investigators, so o a clinician who’s running a clinical trial or an institutional review board, or a sponsor for a medical product. And the purpose behind those inspections is to work with those investigators, find out how they’re conducting the studies so that we have some assurance that they were done in a way that the data that comes out of those studies has integrity, and that the rights and welfare of the people who participated in that trial have been protected. So when you have staff at headquarters, right, that are making review decisions- they got [a] paper that they’re looking at-that someone has gone out and done an assessment of the data that they’re looking at. So I think those are some examples of how our work is impactful and, you know, how it comes together.

JP: Yeah, definitely. I don’t know if you had the same experience, but like I just, again, I had no idea what was out there outside of, you know, just the example of someone pipetting liquid into another tube in the lab. So it’s nice to see that, you know, the scientist isn’t just confined to that. They can also go into government and industry. So, I just can’t get over the fact that you are one of the first black women to graduate from your program. So, can I get your thoughts on the importance of diversity, equity, inclusion, and accessibility in STEM, and how we can improve it, right? Like, how was the environment at Michigan? Was it… was it conducive to…?

Dr. Lucas: Yeah, I mean, I would say overall- so I’ll answer in reverse order- overall, my experience at Michigan was amazing.

JP: Yeah.

Dr. Lucas: You know, I think that was because of the community that I had. Again, student organizations, other students that were on the same trajectory as me, working on their Ph.D. in biomedical sciences. Other…

JP: You said outside friends… like other…

Dr. Lucas: Yeah, yeah! Other graduate students, you know, off-campus. You know, I had a strong church family and a community and involvement there. And then also my family and friends, right? So overall, it was a really great experience. I think some areas where the… it was less than ideal support I’ll say. You know, I felt that my direct lab environment was not as supportive as I would have liked, and I didn’t feel that there was an investment in my success. And you know, was that tied to my identity or not? I don’t know, right. I can’t… I can’t say, because I only have my own frame of reference. But so I would say overall, it was conducive because of that investment in…in this infrastructure where students can support each other right? ‘Cause, I mean, as a student, you know what you’re going through better than a faculty member who’s 20, 30 years older.

JP: Right, yeah.

Dr. Lucas: So yeah, I think overall, it’s a good environment. As far as DEI in general and the importance, you know, I think to have high quality science and innovation in science, diversity is absolutely essential. And I personally benefited from programs that would fall under that umbrella. You know, things like the McNair Scholars Program that I got my first research opportunity through. You know, and I think it’s important to have a continued investment in those things, not to allow them to be dismantled…

JP: Yeah.

Dr. Lucas: …and then to have continued sincere and sustained investments, right? It can’t be like a fly-by-night, in-and-out. It’s a long range… it’s a long range horizon for these things. So you know… and I think also, there’s like this false narrative out there right now that DEI is really about favoritism or exclusion. And I mean, I think that serves to intimidate folks from talking about it and advocating for it, and to silence them. And so I think, you know, as individuals who aren’t in under-represented groups and allies, it’s important to continue to talk about the benefits of having these programs.

JP: Yeah, that was beautiful. So I’m curious, in your perspective, what does actionable DEI look like, right? Like if you could… let’s say you were, I don’t know, the head of your program at Michigan, what things… what things would you put in place to make sure that people did feel included? Like, what do you think would have helped to make your lab environment a little better at your time there?

Dr. Lucas: Yeah, I mean, I think from the top, you need to hear from the top, right?

JP: Yeah.

Dr. Lucas: Keep… keep banging the drum, so to speak, and bringing it up. You know, so that if there’s a clear value on it, I think people expect folks from under-represented groups to talk about it. But you know, when… when leadership and people from majority cultures speak on it, you know, it builds that awareness and kind of builds it into the DNA of the institution. I think, you know, supporting student orgs, and also being careful not to overtax your under-represented students, so that, you know, there’s… they’ve got the PhdD, they’ve got all the things everyone else has, and then they’ve got all these other things going on. So I think it’s important to support them, provide staff support to kind of keep things moving along and project management, so that, you know, they can bring in the ideas and things like that, and that some of the action items and deliverables are done by staff.

JP: Yeah, definitely. Alright, this is kind of like a… I don’t think self serving is the right adjective, but it’s a question where… So I am a… a JEDI leadership fellow, so justice, equity, diversity, inclusion, fellow here at UNC. And one of the ideas that I had was, what if we had a class that was given to a bunch of first years about how you can actually promote inclusivity, right? So like giving people case studies about, okay, if you misgender someone, how do you… how can you apologize correctly, or like [when it] comes to knowing the history of, let’s say, eugenics and scientific racism. That’s one of the things that I’m, you know, teaching. Do you think it’s important to… to think about the history when it comes to inclusion? Because, you know, a lot of scientists nowadays. they’re kind of like, “that happened so long ago.”

Dr. Lucas: Mmhm.

JP: “It doesn’t matter now, right? What now… what matters now is the present right?” It’s like, no, we need to understand the past in order to… to be better people now. So do… do you think it’s worth, you know, talking about that… those types of things, or…?

Dr. Lucas: I do think it’s worth it, and I think on it, right? You have to tie it to present day observations, right? So, you know, this is your lived experience today, and this is… this is why things are that way., right? So this is about historical access and different things like that versus allowing a narrative of… of some kind of difference that… that’s about a difference in talent and ability.

JP: Right. Yeah, cool. I just… I wanted to ask that because I just had a meeting at like… earlier today. And I was like… I just… they wanted to shorten the history part, which, of course I’m okay with. But it’s like, the more history, the better, because the more we can draw examples from the past and bring them into the present, the more effective this will be.

Dr. Lucas: Yeah, yeah! Now… and so is it.. is it a one time thing? Is it a series?

JP: Yeah, so it’s… this is the first time people have done this in the program, so for now, it’s… it’s just like a one and a half hour workshop. But the goal is to band it so that it can be a whole series of… of this.

Dr. Lucas: Yeah, because if it was a series, then that could be like a built-in component of each time, yeah.

JP: I’m a hard hitter though, like I need to… I need to… I’m gonna throw all the information out, you know? Yeah. So do you have any stories that you’d want to share regarding your role right? Like, do you have any cool stories that you can tell to like… let’s say a high school audience, about, you know, bringing them into science and or… or bringing them into FDA, or just, you know, teaching them about the PhD? ‘Cause. I feel like a lot of people need stories and… and a visualization of what actually goes on.

Dr. Lucas: Yeah, I mean, I guess for a story, maybe I would share… for that type of audience, maybe I would share something about…

JP: You can do multiple stories for multiple audiences.

Dr. Lucas: Well, I’ll… Ok. I think I would maybe share a story about an inspection I did.

JP: Ok.

Dr. Lucas: So I was doing an inspection, I was in South America. I was going to a couple of different sites, and… and one thing with that to keep in mind is [that] many trials are… are global, right? So, you know, if a trial is conducted outside the US and it’s felt that it would be beneficial to have someone take a first hand look at that… that data, you know, we go wherever that need is, right? So I think that’s something that people aren’t always aware of. So was… I was in South America doing… doing one of these inspections, and it was for a seizure medication, right? And so, you know, you’re… you’re out going out there, you’re… One of the cool things about doing inspections is unlike when you’re a tourist, you’re really embedded into the culture of that place, right? Like you’re… you’re working with people where they work, where they live. And so, you know, I’m doing this assessment, and you can see, like their diaries, that the… that the patients are filling out. And… and you can see those diaries and see how, at the beginning of the study, how many seizures people are having. And then at the tail end, you know you… you see that impact and how, you know, from my perspective of looking at it, you can see that improvement in… in most of the patients. And so, I think that is the kind of work we get to do, right? We get to… you have to understand the science in order to know, you know, if something is being done one way or the other, whether there’s a substantial difference, right? And to be able to understand a broad variety of therapeutic areas, right? Cause graduate… graduate training in STEM is really training you in the art of discovery, right? It’s, ‘how do I figure out what’s known about a topic? How do I filter through what’s relevant? What’s irrelevant?’ and to apply it to a new and different situation. And so that is… that is the skillset that we’re… that we’re learning and you can apply that in a lot of different places. So I would say that, you know, I think that’s a story of how I feel like both my… my STEM focus but also my interpersonal skills serves me well in my job.

JP: That’s so cool because for the longest time, I thought epidemiologists… that was like an epidemiologist’s job. But it’s nice to hear that, like a scientist at the FDA, right?

Dr. Lucas: Yeah, yeah. And then again, you have the folks at… at the centers who are doing… making the review decisions and things like that. You know, there’s policy work that goes on within FDA, scholarly research, all of those different things.

JP: Yeah. Can I ask what it’s like to really indulge yourself in a culture like that and do science with them? Like are there language barriers? Like, I know in Africa, they speak different dialects, right? So how does one navigate going to another country, communicating science that’s already jargony to these people? Like that… that just seems like a tall task like, how long are you there? A week or…

Dr. Lucas: Usually it’s about a week. I think honestly that the… the jargon is a unifier in a way.

JP: Oh really? Oh, because it’s like, yeah.

Dr. Lucas: Yeah, I think it’s more of a unifier in terms of making it easier to… to navigate different things, cause you’re not… It’s not the whole range of language, right? For the most part, you’re talking about the protocol, the trial, things like that.

JP: Hmm! That’s so interesting. At the FDA… so in academia right now, currently, in my experience, there is a lot more attention being put to science communication. Maybe it’s a product of the pandemic actually, right? Like science communication is huge right now. Science policy is big right now. It… has that reached the government or different agencies within the government like at least at the NIH, I haven’t had any, you know emails that are like, ‘Oh, come, attend this science communication workshop.’

Dr. Lucas: Yeah.

JP:I’m curious, is there plans to do that, or…

Dr. Lucas; Well, it’s funny you mentioned that. We just had a workshop like that last week. JP: Oh cool! It’s important, it’s really important.

Dr. Lucas: Yeah! It is… tt’s absolutely important, and I think, as you mentioned, we saw the… the underside of not addressing it during the pandemic, right? I mean, I think that, you know, it really… It takes a true expert to take something that is complex and to share it in a way that is… is clear and transparent. And I think for a long time, we have… Scientists have just been talking to each other, and I think it has a very strong ability to unify people to find common ground, right? If… if we’re approaching it in a scientific and in a logical way, then we can have some common ground, and then from that common ground, we can have a discussion, right?

JP: Yeah. Right.

Dr. Lucas: But you know, that doesn’t happen when the science doesn’t get shared and… or when it doesn’t get shared in a way that’s clear. So I think that’s… that’s something that is top of mind across the board.

JP: Yeah. Did you have experience with it in your training, though?

Dr. Lucas: Not really, you know and I think, you know, I would definitely say to your listeners, just really pushing yourself to share your… your science every chance you get, going beyond… Of course you have to do, you know, seminars, and you know national conferences and all that stuff, of course you have to do that. But I think also challenging yourself to go to a high school, go to a coffee shop, you know. Talk about it with your family, you know, so often you get to that… that Thanksgiving table and it’s like, “so how’s it going? Did you do any experiments today?” And it’s like, you know, you take that opportunity to really share it and to get in the habit of explaining it in a way that’s clear so…

JP: Yeah. And… and in that, in that regard, practice makes perfect.

Dr. Lucas: Mh hmm! Absolutely, absolutely.

JP: Alright. So let’s say that you were a time traveler. What do you wish you could tell your undergraduate or graduate self if given the opportunity? Like, were there any words of wisdom you would have imparted, motivational speeches, song lyrics? Like what would you have…

Dr. Lucas: Umm. I think I would tell my younger self to resist the push to define success on other people’s terms.

JP? Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Lucas: You know? And I think that’s something I found my way to but I would tell myself up front to… to lean into that, you know. Not trying to fit in someone else’s box or you know, ‘this is… this is the definition of success.’ No, no, we… we define success on our own terms. So that’s what I would absolutely encourage myself to do.

JP: Cool. So, can I start moving into fun questions now?

Dr. Lucas: Sure!

JP: Alright! Or actually, one last one. Is there anything else you would like to tell my listeners before we move into fun questions?

Dr. Lucas: Umm. I would just, it’s kind of similar to the last point I made, I would encourage them to build an identity apart from your accomplishments. You know, hopefully, your accomplishments are in alignment with your personal goals, so of course it can include that. But to not have it be the totality of your identity, or even have your identity centered on it. And by doing that, I think that will ultimately build resilience, right? So when you have challenges, maybe have just a stretch of experiments that don’t work, or you have a difficult committee meeting or you’re having a tough relationship with your advisor, having community and identity apart from just the things that you’re trying to accomplish, will actually help you to come up with creative solutions. It’ll help you to recharge and get back to it. And then, I think that also helps you to navigate your professional pursuits in a way that aligns with your core values versus just based on benchmarks towards whatever goal you’re trying to accomplish in the moment.

JP: Yeah. Well, based off that, can I ask you this? What are your proudest accomplishments? Because I… I don’t know if you’d actually say like, “Oh. I have my PhD,” right? I mean I’m curious like, what… how would you… how would you answer that?

Dr. Lucas: I’d definitely say getting my PhD is one of my proudest accomplishments.

JP: Ok, cool cool.

Dr. Lucas: Because… and it’s not… but not for the PhD, right?

JP: Right, right, right.

Dr. Lucas: I think it would be one of my proudest accomplishments, because it wasn’t easy and… but I was very resilient, I built wonderful relationships. You know, I was kind to people along the way, you know. I reached back to mentor others as I went along. Like, I’m very proud of the way that… that I’ve navigated that situation.

JP: Okay, cool. Alright. So let’s say you went back in time, and you were able to get your PhD and you were able to record the whole moment.

Dr. Lucas: Haha, ok.

JP: And you can make a video, right?

Dr. Lucas: Ok.

JP: What song would you play in the background?

Dr. Lucas: Oh, as I was getting my PhD?

JP: As you’re getting your PhD, right? Like you… it’s like a highlight mix tape where it’s like, “oh, walking up to the stage, now I’m a doctor,” what do you… what do you play?

Dr. Lucas: Okay, Alicia Keys, “Superwoman”.

JP: Haha, I love that. Lowkey, I ask these questions because I’m just trying to find inspiration for open mic night. I do open mic night every week, and I’m always like trying to find songs that are like…

Dr. Lucas: Yeah!

JP: What do you do outside your day job?

Dr. Lucas: Outside my day job, I spend my time with my two girls and my husband and my family and community. And for fun, I like to read, and when I say read, I read with my ears. I’m an audio book girl.

JP: Ah, nice.

Dr. Lucas: And just for like stress relief, I like to Zumba.

JP: Oh, nice! Wait, where are you… Are you in Maryland, that’s where the FDA is?

Dr. Lucas: No, I’m in Michigan.

JP: Oh, you’re in Michigan! Is the FDA in Michigan?

Dr. Lucas: FDA has offices across the country, and some internationally.

JP: Oh, that’s right! Ok, so you’re just… you just work remotely in Michigan.

Dr. Lucas: Yes.

JP: That’s awesome. This is… okay. I’m from LA. This is such a weird, naive question. What’s the weather like right now? Isn’t it like… doesn’t it get really bad?

Dr. Lucas: 35-ish?

JP: Oh, that’s so cold! That’s so cold. North Carolina, North Carolina could never.

Dr. Lucas: It’s all relative, it’s all relative.

JP: Haha

Dr. Lucas: There’s a little bit of snow out there right now. Not much, it’s… it’s pretty good.

JP: Well, I was going to say, you grew up in Illinois too, so…

Dr. Lucas: Exactly, exactly.

JP: Yeah, yeah, yeah. One of… one of my lab mates just got an interview at Michigan and she’s very, very excited. I think she’s going there this weekend actually.

Dr. Lucas: Ok well, if she decides to come, please feel free to put her in touch.

JP: Yeah! Does that mean you’re like a Michigan sports fan too? Like Detroit, like the lions? Was it a sad weekend for you?

Dr. Lucas: It… it was exciting and then it was sad so…

JP: Yeah, very sad. I was… I think everyone was rooting for the Lions. Yeah. What are your favorite types of food and why? Because for me, it’s like taste, right? It’s obviously like, “Oh, this food is my favorite because it tastes so good.” But sometimes people are like, “no, it’s… it’s this, not because it tastes good, but because my grandma used to make it like all the time.”

Dr. Lucas: Yeah, so favorite… I like a lot of different types of food. But for a favorite, I would have to say thin crust pizza from Chicago, because I have… I found a reasonable substitute for deep dish pizza, but I’m hard pressed to find a really good thin crust super cheesy pizza, like, I get now.

JP: You’re not a Domino’s, you don’t like the Domino’s? Cool. Alright! That was all the questions that I had. But I did want to end on your podcast recommendations. What other… what have you been listening to? I’m curious. I want…

Dr. Lucas: Yeah, so what am I listening to? I like “Think Again,” Adam Grant’s podcast.

JP: Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Lucas: I also like… oh it’s called, “How Do We Begin” or “Where Do We Begin”? “Where Do We Begin.” It’s Esther Perel’s podcast.

JP: Esther Perel… these are like, good… these are hardcore podcasts.

Dr. Lucas: Like you’re listening… So for Ester Perel, you’re listening to one-time therapy sessions.

JP: Yeah! Yeah, yeah, yeah!

Dr. Lucas: And the part that is remarkable about her, she’s very gifted as a therapist in terms of just kind of really cutting through and hearing what people are saying kind of between what they’re actually saying. But you hear people who are in vastly different situations from what you’re in.

JP: Yeah.

Dr. Lucas: And it’s just the… the commonality, like the common humanity. You know, it’s like, okay, this person’s experience could be any different than mine. But I completely understand where they’re coming from and the emotion underneath. So, yeah, those are… those are two of my top recommendations.

JP: Yeah, I wish I could…