Field Safety in Field Biology: Dr. Murry Burgess

In this episode, I interviewed Dr. Murry Burgess. When I interviewed Murry in 2023, she was a PhD candidate at North Carolina State University, and now she is a tenure-track Assistant Professor at Mississippi State University. She is an ornithology and urban ecology researcher, but she is also a huge advocate for field safety in the natural sciences as an aspect of accessibility and inclusion. In 2022, she co-founded a non-profit organization called Field Inclusive, which amplifies and supports marginalized and historically excluded field biologists. She is also a children’s book author with both self-published work and contracted pieces with Little, Brown Young Readers and Christy Ottaviano Books. She is the author for a nature book series featuring a 5-year old Black girl exploring the nature around her suburban home.

Transcription

Transcribed by Sylvie Parkus (she/her)

JP: What’s up y’all, it’s your host JP Flores and welcome to from where does it stem?

JP: In this episode I interviewed Dr. Murry Burgess when interviewed Murray in 2023. She was a PhD candidate at North Carolina State University. And now she’s a tenure track assistant professor at Mississippi State University. She is an Ornithology and Urban Ecology researcher and is also a huge advocate for field safety in the Natural Sciences as an aspect of accessibility and inclusion. In 2022, she co-founded a nonprofit organization called Field Inclusive, which amplifies and supports marginalized and historically excluded field biologists.

Murry: My name is Murry Burgess. And right now I am a PhD candidate at North Carolina State University. I am an urban ecologist, ornithologist, educator, and children’s author, and I also own a non-profit Field Inclusive.

JP: Yeah, so thank you again for taking the time to be on here. Do you mind painting a picture of what you’re like? Like, how were you raised? What was your upbringing like? How has that helped shape you into all the wonderful things you’re doing now?

Murray: Always obsessed with animals going to like all the zoos and Aquariums and everything. And so that really like shaped my passion to go into like the wildlife field and I was also raised in like, you know the suburbs of like the Deep South, Tennessee, Mississippi. And so that also kind of like shaped my desire to go into like Urban Ecology as well as some of my social justice, environmental justice efforts that I do.

JP: Yeah, that’s real. Can you touch on that? So I was looking into Field Inclusive and it’s like field safety is important in your field and I just wondering you what is your perspective as a black woman in stem. Like how is that shape your experience being an urban ecologist and your passion for social justice?

Murray: Right. So for those who may not know, field work is just something that a lot of ecologists and biologists do that involves, like outdoor data collection. For example, I work with birds and so I go outside every day during the summer to a barn on a farm and I collect data from barn swallow chicks. And as well as testing light pollution, that’s what my experiment is about how the nestlings grow under like different types of light pollution versus natural conditions. But anyway, so I’m out there. It’s a kind of remote rural area. I am a black woman who is often working by myself and sometimes working at night as well, since I’m dealing with light pollution and I started in 2020 which is part of reason why I didn’t have anybody out in field with me because of covid restrictions, but it was also, you know election year lots of political unrest during that year. And it just really dawned on me that as black woman. There are no like extra protections in place should something happen to me. That’s like non Wildlife related like a lot of people get the police called on them when they’re doing field work or they get confronted by like angry landowners or like people who are just suspicious of them existing in that space. And across the board, it seems like there are no policies in place from universities to like deal with that sort of issue and that’s kind of where Field Inclusive came from, wanting to have something to start talking about it and hopefully doing something about it.

JP: No, I think it’s really cool. So it sounds like you’ve probably partnered with people at NC State. What that look like like, trying to put policy in place? Because assuming you’re facing a lot of pushback and things like that. But what are tangible, you know policies that y’all are thinking of?

Murry: yeah, some the things that me and co-founder Lauren far are working towards at NC State. One is crowdfunding for field safety gear and that gear can like come as anything like magnets for your car or like personalized ID badges or like safety vests. Anything that you can like have on your person that kind of distinguishes you as like, oh I’m part this University. So I’m out here doing research and that can help like dissuade some of the conflicts from happening in the first place. Another thing that we’re working to implement is like a required online training module that would be like required for all like staff and students who do field work in the outdoors and hopefully make them aware of these issues and like give them some resources for addressing that because we want like, you everybody to feel safe when they’re working, when they’re doing their job.

JP: Yeah. No, I think that’s awesome. So I know you’re defending and we just had a conversation before this and I know you’re probably busy, but have you had plans to expand this because I didn’t hear about Field Inclusive until actually one of my ecology professors from undergrad was like “hey, have heard about this? It’s in your state. I think you should try get them on podcast because it could great publicity.” So it sounds a lot of people are interested in what you do, but has that started? Have you had any momentum to expand this to other places?

Murry: Yeah there –

JP: This was in LA by the way, my professor is in LA, I hope you know that it has reached the West Coast. Yeah.

Murry: That is so cool. I love it. And yeah, we are expanding so fast like right now it is only me, Lauren, and our intern Kayla who have and we’re all grad students. So it’s like why did we start a nonprofit when we’re trying to like graduate, but it was like so important and so we are like working on what we can right now at North Carolina State, but we also planning to like add more members to like our advisory board and partner with many different people to provide like trainings and workshops and just like helping other like universities and other labs like get the materials ready for like their own students. And so we hope to have like a lot of working committees, like maybe one focused on like International students because you know, they have a whole other set of needs for field safety and just like having a lot of we really hope this like goes on.

JP: It’s rather new too. So I mean–

Murry: Yeah, we just started this summer, like August.

JP: Yeah. So, how do you stay motivated to do this? Because you I’m a grad student and do a lot of different initiatives and like it’s Friday evening and I’m exhausted. And I know you are too.You’re defending soon. What is your, I guess, secret to staying motivated because I’m still looking for my answers. I’m kind just taking it day by day, but I’m sure you have have some strategy.

Murry:I mean that’s kind the answer right there, to like take it day by day and to like remember to make time for things that I enjoy like spending time with friends or like just hiking around outside with my dog or like doing for photography. Something to like take my mind off of the work. But while I am doing the work, I’m also motivated because I really truly think it’s important work to be doing and I want everybody to feel safe pursuing a Natural Science degree and don’t want field work to be a barrier and I just want to leave like my field better than the way I found it.

JP: Definitely. I’m sorry if stresses you out, but do know you to do after like it like you want maybe go into Academia? Maybe run the nonprofit? Maybe both? Like what are you thinking right now?

Murry: Yeah, I have a lot of like things that I like to do. Like, you know, the research part, the teaching part, the non-profit part, so I really don’t know which one I want to lean into.

JP: Even policy right? Like think that’s another route that you might want to consider too. Maybe you can help shape policy to make field work more inclusive or just leading these things and having that top down approach, right?

Murry: So yeah, I think part of me would like to stay in like maybe Academia try to make some like changes like, you know as a professor with both like the way that the material is taught, the way that students are taken care of. That could a good spot for me.

JP: Yeah, definitely. So do you mentor a lot of students in your program? I’m assuming you know as someone who is passionate about social justice, you have a lot of mentees that you are helping, you know progress to graduate careers. Why do you think you do that or why do you think mentorship is important?

Murry: I think it’s important to like have somebody in your corner, someone who you know is like cheering for you and like wanting you to succeed. I also know that’s like something that I have appreciated in my life. And I remember all of my mentors, like all the back through kindergarten just because it like means so much to me for people to care about me and I just enjoy being, hopefully being that for other people.

JP: Yeah, definitely. So I probably shouldnt ask this as I’m recording, but would you be willing to like bird with me? Because, so the college that I went to Occidental college is home to the Moore lab of zoology. I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of it, but it’s home to over 40,000 specimen of taxidermied birds from Mexico. Oh, yeah, so it’s called the Moore lab zoology and you know, some of my favorite professors were running it and I always bothered them “like can I please just go with you on a trip, we don’t have to go anywhere huge, I just want to learn how to like, you bird.” So like do help host any workshops like that in North Carolina?

Murry: I sometimes I do like little birding workshops, but they’re more so like focused on like Ornithology or like teaching bird banding to kids and then might like do a bird banding group. But like no, like let’s totally go birding together. Like it doesn’t have to be like super formal or anything.

JP: I feel so embarrassed asking this, but it’s the first thing that popped in my mind and I riff.

Murry: You’re fine and I would love to go out with you.

JP: So a lot people in science talk about their support systems, you know, whether it be family or their peers. Can you speak on that a bit because I moved across the country from LA to and I don’t have my family, right? So I’ve relied heavily on this peer mentor system. What has yours been like, you know as you’ve got to this point in your career?

Murry: Yeah, I’ve a bit the same moving from Mississippi to North Carolina. So all my family’s in Mississippi pretty much and so it’s like great having them like as a support from afar, like even, I’m not like with them all the time. They’re always thinking about me. I also have like really amazing friends who are super supportive even though there are some in North Carolina I’ve made since I’ve been here and some in like other states, so It’s just this huge support network of people who encourage each other.

JP: Yeah, definitely. So let’s say you were the president of NC State right? And you can, how do you think we can I guess diversify stem and implement more initiative to better support students from historically underrepresented backgrounds. Like what do you think are the barriers today? Because there’s a lot, right? Like one of them that comes to mind is for having to front expenses for a conference abroad.

Murry: That’s the thing that popped into my mind as well is pay people more money, right? It’s a lot of work even as Grad students, there’s a lot to do and people deserve fair compensation for their work. That’s where everything can start really.

JP: Right, right. And then can you think of any other things when it comes to like, you know, it seems like we both value mentorship a lot and I talked about this with people in my cohort, but how can we set up better peer mentor networks? How can we you know train faculty better to support their trainees. I– this a big question. I’m sorry, but have you had any discussions like that at all?

Murry: Yeah. It is a complicated question and we’ve been talking about it a lot and like not always sure like how to address it on such a large level. I think, like in general a lot of advisors or like mentors aren’t taught how to do that, it’s just like part of the job that they’re expected to do. And so some kind of more formal training to like help people mentor or help them be this leader in the department.

JP:Right.

Murry: That would be helpful.

JP: So what do you think was your defining moment as a scientist? Like did you ever you know, I don’t know if this is the right word. Did you ever gaslight yourself when it came to science or did you gaslight yourself trying to form this non-profit? Were you ever like there’s no way I could do that. Like when was your defining moment? Murry: I still gaslight myself.

JP: It’s the Imposter syndrome, right?

Murry: Yes, like a daily reminder. It’s like no you got this. But yeah, I think I’ve had a defining moments of like getting into the fields. Like I never wanted to be an ornithologist for the longest time. I had zero interest in birds until I was like forced to take a Ornithology class as an elective as an undergrad, but here I am, it turned out great.

JP: What changed your mind?

Murry: I think what really changed my mind was like the first time I held a bird like we got like to sit in on this mist netting demonstration and they were letting the students release the birds. I think that moment was just like wow, like I could do this for the rest of my life.

JP: So cool. Okay. Alright that’s defining moment number one. You said there were more.

Murry: I feel like another defining moment has been me doing some more work outside of ornithology for like children’s environmental education and like thinking about these DEI issues and hearing the positive response from everyone was just like really motivating to me. I was so worried that people would only care about like, you know the hard research side of my work, but people are also interested in other stuff.

JP: Yeah, so it sounds like you have a … pretty good skills in science communication. What do you think are the, I guess most pertinent things, I guess pertinent things to know when communicating science. We just went through a pandemic and I know science communication was, that was a hard time for science, right? You are communicating with younger students. What are your, what are the things you remind yourself?

Murry: Yeah, one of things I like to know is who specifically is my audience because I’m going to be tailoring that message to like different age groups, different experience backgrounds and everything. So that’s really helpful to like have a version of like what you’re teaching to cater towards the age group. And another thing that I think is really important is to just make it fun and like exciting.

JP: Yeah, right?

Murry: Like it sounds simple, but it really is just like showing that you’re passionate about what you’re talking about goes a long way to help other people like find the interest.

JP: Yeah, definitely. All right, sorry to put you on the spot but let’s say you are leading, you know an activity for older personnel. How would you go about that? Because I think, honestly I think your energy is like it’s pretty easy for you to get along with kids. But how do you know mix? How do you I guess adjust to different people?

Murry: Yeah, I think so far I’ve been like really lucky with like the older groups that I’ve interacted with. They have so far seemed really on board. I think one of the things that has worked out best for them is like trying to relate some of my struggles that they might have never experienced before to something that’s like common in their lives. So it’s like really easy if we’re all like out birding together. We can like talk about how easy it is for them to like go out and how much they enjoy it, while for someone like me might not only be looking at the birds, but like checking around for like police or like does anybody think I’m out here being suspicious with a pair of binoculars. Like I just want to enjoy the birds the same way you enjoy the birds.

JP: Right. I think that’s awesome. So the professor that reached out to me, I think she’s the CEO of like tropical studies in a program in Costa Rica, I think. I was wondering like what makes sense to connect you too? Because I think that’d be a cool way to get Field Inclusive out there too. Is to just start, you know forming these connections and you never know who she might connect you with and stuff like that. Do you think that’d be a good idea because I really don’t know for sure.

Murry: Yeah, for sure, I think that would be a great idea.

JP: Maybe after you defend.

Murry: Okay anytime like the ball is rolling. I’m on it now. Yeah, any connections. We are open to partnerships ideas or just like simply listening to like what people have to say.

JP: Okay. And what is the best way to like, I guess, get the most up-to-date information on Field Inclusive and I guess what you’re doing and stuff like that?

Murry: Yeah, you can check us out on our website which is Field Inclusive.org or you can follow us on, I think all social media platforms. We’re on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, YouTube. So just follow Field inclusive, we’re young Grad students who are constantly posting, so…

JP: Do you have TikToks and stuff too, or no?

Murry: I- I don’t think any of us are brave enough to do tiktok [laugh].

JP: [laugh] I was gonna say there’s no way I can TikTok. That’s funny. Cool, alright well I don’t have any more science questions, I do have a couple fun questions though, if you are ready.

Murry: Alright, I’m ready.

JP: Alright, so let’s say you were in the field, right, and you gathered some really cool data, and you’re really really stoked about it. What song are you blasting on the car ride home? Uh And why?

Murry: [laugh] oh, that’s a good question. Um, maybe blasting Sweatpants by Childish Gamb–

JP: Childish, hell yeah!

Murry: [laugh] Because I felt like I did something really awesome. So like, [singing lyrics] don’t be mad when I’m doing me better than you doin’ you.

JP: I thought you were gonna say like Rihanna or something because after I watched the Super Bowl halftime show I was like damn she’s got, dang she’s got some bangers.

Murry: [laugh] she does

JP: I accidentally said damn, that’s my bad.

JP: {laugh] That’s funny. Cool. alright, next one. Um, if you’re at a wedding, and there was one song that could bring you to the dance floor. What would it be?

Murry: Hmm, I’ll have to go with like one of the like classic dance songs. Just like cupid shuffle, wobble.

JP: Cha Cha Slide.

Murry: Yeah, how do you resist?

JP: Alright, what is your favorite thing to do outside of science?

Murry: Um, I’m gonna cheat and say two things, but my favorite two things to do. One I think is wildlife photography and the other I really enjoy playing video games, and like I have gotten back into them as an adult. Yeah.

JP: What are you playing right now?

Murry: Right now I am playing the breath of the wild in anticipation for the next one.

JP: Yeah, awesome. Okay, and then because I’m new to North Carolina, this will be the last one. What are your I guess food or dessert recommendations for out here.

Murry: Ooooh, that’s a good one.

JP: I think Raleigh is a lot more popping than Chapel Hill

Murry: I will say pick pretty much anything on Hillsborough Street, and you probably will have some delicious food. Like that’s not let me wrong so far.

JP: Is that where is that? Is that near, ahhh, like the Pit and all of that? That’s the only place I know in Raleigh. Like I don’t really know… Brewery Bhavana. I’ve been to Brewery Bhavana.

Murry: Yeah, it’s close to NC State. This like right adjacent to campus.

JP: Cool. Um, so I wanted this to be short and sweet because I know it’s a Friday evening. I didn’t want you to just be like tired and be like damn now, I gotta do this I guess. Um, is there anything else that you would want to share as far as like, you know advice or like advertising Field Inclusive, advertising yourself?

Murry: Um, I would just encourage everybody to check out Field Inclusive, if you, especially if you are like a minority in the field. Don’t hesitate to like find out how you can ask for resources and speak up for yourself. Um, I’ll also plug my own social media I guess. I’m Murray Loub on Instagram and Twitter so follow me there.

JP: Cool. Well, thank you so much. That was really fun.

Murry: It was really fun.

JP: I’m sorry for being like –