Incorporating Patient Engagement: Lisa McCorkell

In this episode, I had a conversation with Lisa McCorkell, a Long COVID Patient-Researcher and Advocate. She received a Masters in Public Policy from the University of California, Berkeley, and a Bachelor of Arts in Political Science from the University of California, Los Angeles. Currently, she is a co-founder, team lead, and researcher with the Patient-Led Research Collaborative. She regularly presents recommendations and the patient perspective to government agencies and has been awarded the American Academy of Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation Distinguished Public Service Award and was named Nature’s 10 in 2022. My favorite fun fact about her is that she’s a huge Noah Kahan fan!

Transcription

Transcribed by Lara Minassians (she/her)

Lisa McCorkell: All right. So I am Lisa McCorkell, and I am the co-founder of the patient led research collaborative, which is a group of long Covid patients who have conducted research on Long Covid. We now fund research into Long Covid and associated conditions, and we advocate for people with Long Covid associated conditions and all disabled people. I am calling in from Oakland, California. I grew up in Orange County, California. went to undergrad at Ucla got my bachelors in political science a bit different, and then moved up to San Francisco after undergrad, and initially worked in financial counseling at a nonprofit, and then worked at a employment law center that did research on racial and gender bias in the workplace and stable scheduling for hourly retail workers was very interested in that type of work. I really love the policy aspects, but didn’t really have the skills to do research myself and do kind of policy research. And so I went to grad school to get some of those skills. I went to UC Berkeley to get my masters in public policy and right at the end of of that, and I was supposed to graduate in May of 2020 and march of 2020 is when pandemic hit, and I got Covid, and did not recover, and that was really the start of the patient-led research collaborative. Once I graduated grad school I worked for the State of California for a couple of years I was a policy analyst for SNAP, which is food stamps. And then, just in May of of last year, I went full time with PLRC. Or patient led research collaborative.

JP Flores (he/him): Awesome. Yeah, Thank you for joining. So can you tell us more about Prc. How did it come to be? You know what was the inspiration behind it? Did you have a team behind you? Was it a community effort? How did that? How did that go down?

Lisa McCorkell: Yeah, all of that all team based, community-based. Yes, it was very serendipitous formation. So essentially, in the early days of Covid there was many of us got Covid. March 2020. This is around right now is our 3 year mark, and didn’t recover. In fact, like generally got worse after that initial infection stage. But the time. No one was really discussing that in the media, or you know, government wasn’t really saying anything. When we asked our health care providers like, Why, Aren’t, we getting better? They’re like, just hang in there. You will. They didn’t really have answers for us at that point. So in April of 2,020. Fiona Lowenstein wrote an OP. ED. In New York Times, describing their own experience with these prolonged symptoms after getting Covid. And they had created a support group called the Body politic COVID-19 support group, put a link in the New York Times, OP-LED I was lucky enough to come across that New York Times OP-ED, and so we’re thousands of others, and we signed up for the Support group overnight. Very quickly there is like a group of us who didn’t necessarily have medical backgrounds. Some folks did, but it was largely just a group of people who join the support group who are interested in data and had, like some experience in some aspect of data or data analysis. and we realized everyone is sharing their experiences, their symptoms like, but not in a super systematic way. And so we wanted to put out a survey to see if we could identify trends. And just see for ourselves like what’s going on with us because we are not getting any answers from anyone. And so that’s what we did. We put out a Google Form survey and posted those results as a Google Doc. And that was the first research on what we now know of as Long Covid, and that was posted on May eleventh of 2020, and then from there it just kind of naturally progressed. We I had no you know, expectation of creating an organization from this I just was like what’s going on with my body and like. Let’s try to get some answers for folks. and it just really progressed because we were seen as the people who knew the most of what was going on with Long Covid, and the only people really drawing attention to it. In addition to people who experienced similar illnesses, like viral onset illnesses that overlap with long Covid, like myologic encephalomyelitis or chronic fatigue, syndrome MECFS or forms of disordernomial things that we know have viral onsets. But there’s just been a real lack of education on these illnesses prior to the pandemic, and and unfortunately even now not as much as there should be. So we we grew from there, and just got more requests from CDC and NIH to to talk about what was going on. We were featured by LED Young and an Atlantic article. And we realized that as our symptoms were continuing, we needed to do more research because there was more symptoms popping up more experiences people were were having. So we put out another survey that documented over 200 symptoms of Long Covid and that was published in the lancet’s e-clinical medicine in 2023 And we’ve really just just grown from there, and we’re able to get some funding to launch other projects. And yeah, it’s been a huge area of growth, and and not something I ever expected, but has been very much driven by the community and just the needs that we see within the long Covid patient community.

JP Flores (he/him): Yeah, that’s awesome. Yeah, I it’s just amazing how you were able to do all this in such a short amount of time, but it’s but it’s also like weren’t you also dealing with these symptoms, while you know all this was going on as far as the administrative work, you know, rallying the team together. How do you? How do you stay motivated to do something so so big when you yourself are also affected by this like, what drove you to to, you know, feel so compelled to to form this organization?

Lisa McCorkell: Yeah, I mean, I think it. It is feeling so crappy that like

JP: right? Okay, yeah.

Lisa McCorkell: it’s it’s it’s an interesting dynamic where we are very tired. We’re fatigued. We’re dealing with cognitive dysfunction. We’re dealing with daily debilitating symptoms. But that’s also our motivation. Is that not really anyone else, especially at the beginning was looking into this and of people who were You know they they didn’t necessarily know the experience that we were experiencing. We have firsthand experience with this. and so it’s. It was largely out of desperation that we did this, and I put in every extra ounce of energy I had into doing the research and creating the organization. But I think that’s one of the beautiful things about patient like research collaborative is that we’re very disability focused and try to be as inclusive and accommodating as possible, and we’ve done all of our work. With that in mind health comes first. Our hours are flexible. We try not to set deadlines. and really just being accommodating and understanding what people’s access needs are in order to participate, and knowing that. Yeah, maybe that’ll result in us having being slower, quote unquote than like the what a other type of research organization would do. But like we haven’t really seen that right? Like we’ve done amazing work. We’ve gotten work out that has been really quick. But we haven’t. You know that Hasn’t put our health at risk by doing that, and I I think that’s a model of work that really needs to be prioritized and more accepted, especially as we’re seeing millions of people deal with Long Covid like that’s going to be a requirement basically for workplaces now is to have accommodations and to meet people’s access needs to participate.

JP Flores (he/him): Oh, a 100%. Yeah. And it’s it’s funny because it’s like. That’s the type of inclusive environment that everyone kind of looks for right but I think society is really hammered in the whole cut throat going to be working from this time at this time in in order to be productive. But I just don’t think that’s the case right like, for example, i’m in graduate school and lucky. Luckily I’m in a I’m In a lab environment where we do value you know, just doing your own thing where there is no, ike strict schedule or anything, and it’s really helped us right. We’re not burning out. We’re not doing anything like that. So that’s kind of my analogous thing to what’s going on at PLRC. So would you mind paying a picture of of who you are like? How are you raised, and what your upbringings were like. So I know that your background is in policy, right? But it sounds like I mean maybe it’s just pure coincidence. But you know what what was it like going up with that policy background?

Lisa McCorkell: Yeah, yeah. So grew up in in Orange County and kind of I always had like an interest in science, and had been you know, like did well in science classes, and was actually pushed by one of my high school teachers to to major in neuroscience. When I first went into Ucla. And yeah, but just as soon as I got there I and I saw but then, like my first chem class, and I was like nope, this is, I don’t know it was, you know. I I think the students around me were were so sure that they were meant to be in that class. You know. They had dreams of getting their PhDs of getting their MDs. And I just had no idea what I wanted to do, and knew that I knew that I was like you know, I loved learning about science, but had always been kind of more like. just like justice, focused and and loved, advocating for people and just was really interested in the role that policy impacts people’s lives and so had that interest in science, but was kind of more just to like interested in in government, and how how government and and policies impact people lives. And so, yeah, first quarter went by I was like, okay, chem not for me. Let me like switch over to political science. I’ll be a scientist quote unquote, but of politics, I guess. Yeah. So I think it was Really, you know, I was just interested in in a lot of things, even when I was in undergrad. I started, probably like 10 minors, including like geography, GIS accounting. Like everything under the book, I end up graduating with none of those I just graduated with a political science degree. But I just was always interested in and kind of everything, and just like wanted to learn as much as I could and and yeah, but I I just like. I think I found the well from growing up. My family had you know, been how should I say this like we? My mom was on disability benefits, or is on disability benefits due to a disability, and my parents had been, you know, recipients of of benefits, and we had just had a lot of interactions with policies, and I saw how it directly impacted us, how it directly impacted the community I was with. And so I think I just found that aspect of the world to be particularly interesting, and like wanted to have an impact in in that way, and was lucky enough and privileged enough to be able to to kind of pursue that but had no real you know I did not anticipate at all being in the position I now at all the fact that I, you know, was named Nature’s 10, and on a list of people that shaped science, is bonkers to me.

JP: So cool

Lisa: So never would have anticipated that it’s it’s I still pinch myself from for that. But yeah, I think part of it is due to just like my my training and my background, and the way that I view the world is very community driven, and I think that’s why it’s kind of different than the way science has been done in many ways, and I think that’s why it’s, you know shaping science is that it’s it’s bringing kind of forth a a different lens of of viewing things.

JP Flores (he/him): Yeah, no. And it’s funny. No shades, any like chemistry professors, or anything like that. But for some reason it’s always chemistry like I don’t know why everyone brings up the chemistry class, and i’m like, why is it always that it’s never a biology class, right?

Lisa McCorkell: I know. I love biology. I don’t know what it was about chem.

JP: Yeah, yeah. But what’s interesting is is, I think people need to realize scientists for the community. And in order for science to work, you need to be aware of the different policies involved. Right? Like, for example, the pandemic was a classic case. The stuff that you do with PLRC is is a classic example of how we need to be. We we need to bridge the gap between the humanities and the sciences. It’s not just, you know. One is by the other. You know we we complement each other right? So what are your? What are your thoughts as as a policy background type of person? So I try to do a lot of diversity, equity, inclusion, initiatives here at Unc. I’ve been a lot of accidental college right at undergrad. and people always talk about. You know the grassroots effort right? The ground up. and I think people take the top down stuff for granted, because sometimes you just get pushed back from from administrators right. And and you know, for the longest time I thought to myself, this is definitely a multi prong thing. You need to have both need. That’d be bottom up, top down. But what do you think is the best way to? I guess cause change right like it. Let’s say you were in an institution and you wanted to do something like PLRC. At a smaller scale out of school or something. How would you have a how would you have approached that? Because, as a as a scientist like honestly, I think I would have just thought of the idea and not tried to do anything about it. So what is, what are your thoughts on that? Like? What is the best way to to? You know the social justice trip, and what is the best way to to be actionable and intentional. Your plan?

Lisa McCorkell: Hmm. Yeah. I mean, what’s tough with the top down approach is that it requires by in of of the right, and and we often have that, and that’s something that we come across as as patients. A lot is that we’ll be in rooms with researchers or or providers who have not been trained to see patients as equals in a research setting and it’s tough to get through to those types of people and to really get their buy in on why, it’s important to value the patient experience why it’s important to value involving the community involving communities of color involving LGBTQIA. All of that it just is. It’s difficult to get that buy in largely because they’re not trained in that. But so part of our work is often to showlike our value and and kind of, I guess, like prove ourselves a bit in that like we know what we’re talking about. We have all of these hypotheses. These ideas are are based in existing research. They’re based in our experiences and really just kind of proving ourselves and not backing down. When we get that push back because that that push back is always going to be there. We’re pushing against the status quo and people who are in positions of power right now the reason why they got in those positions of power is because they succeeded in the current society, they don’t want society to change. They don’t want the structures to change, because that’s how they got to where they are. So you’re always going to receive that push back and it’s just you just have to find other like minded individuals. You have to be in community with people. I mean, that’s the biggest thing is that, you know, if in order to change anything. We– no one can do it on their own we need to be in community with each other. We need to have alliances across issues that’s one of the the main components and and principles of disability justice is cross, movement, solidarity. And you know, I think, disabled people overall really understand the intersectional nature. And like we’re not going to find liberation, we’re not going to find or experience really any successes, unless we are considering all marginalized and oppressed groups. So yeah, I think it’s. It’s kind of showing that you know what you’re talking about, that you, and and having confidence in your experience and understanding inherently the value of that and then being in community with other people, and really coming together with with other movements and people who have similar values, and and really pushing for for change.

JP Flores (he/him): Yeah, most definitely. And it’s worked well, because you you’re now getting attention from from the NIH. I I think the CDC. You mentioned as well. What has it been like working with those groups? Has it been– I mean, I don’t want to like out anything at all. But how? How has it been working with scientists from these Federal governments, these Federal agencies?

Lisa McCorkell: Yeah, it’s hit or miss, and I feel really comfortable, you know, saying anything on these folks. But yeah, I mean, some people have. They do really understand the value of community’s input and the value of lived experience and but there’s many who who do not and are frankly rude to us, dismissive, can get angry at us when we say something that disagrees with them. Don’t treat us with the respect that they treat their other colleagues. Just see us as like below them, essentially. And yeah. So I think that, you know that’s the case in a lot of the recover initiative, is that there’s both like which that’s the the recover initiative is the big study NIH has for a long Covid. There’s some PIs that are incredible and amazing. They really value the patient experience center of the patients. And then there’s some who are very dismissive, and I think it’s largely because again it goes back to the training that they received, and they’re you know, the medical schools and PhD programs don’t often say, like, hey, listen to your patience and patient experience is valuable. It’s very academic focused. And so yeah, we’re we’re countering and and trying to push back against decades of training. Essentially, and so they can be tough to to do that. But you know, there there are folks that are really wanting to to be allies, and to be supportive and and understand the need. Because this is how we’re going to find answers faster, right? That’s what ideally what we all want. And this is how we do. It is by like centering the patient experience. But then, you know, with with folks at at CDC and and other government organizations there is the added element of politics where you know it’s Covid right now is not seen as a priority. It’s you know people disabled people are being completely disregarded, and you know masks are no longer required like there is all of these these different elements at play that you know even if someone in a government agency like wants to be supportive of patients, maybe they feel like they can’t, because you know the person above them is is against that, or is feeling political pressure from from different sides. So there’s so many different aspects that play but yeah, so it’s really been been, hit or miss, I would say.

JP Flores (he/him): Yeah, I I don’t know if you’ve given this much thought. But let’s say you were a PI right? And then, like, let’s say something wild happens, if not your PI of a lab, or just like the director of a huge program or even like, let’s say, okay, like the director of the NIH. for example, how would you rewrite everything like? Just rewrite the system? That’s huge question. Huge question. Your brain is my spinning right now. But like.

Lisa McCorkell: yeah.

JP: I don’t know, like like, how would you redo things? How would you rewrite the books? And just right because everyone talked to that. At least, me and my friends talk about tearing everything down and building it back up and we do it jokingly, quote unco jokingly. But no, these are serious conversations that we have, and it’s like, Where do you even start? Let’s say, let’s say we do tear it down and have the ability to write something up. Where do you start? And I guess I’m just trying to pick your your policy minded background right like it’s like. What do you? What do you do?

Lisa McCorkell: Totally, I mean, I think it especially. Okay, let’s say, i’m director of NIH. NIH and any of these types of science and and funding bodies really needs to be better at co-governance, which is essentially, you know, governing what the communities are trying to serve and that is something that is missing from a lot of of the US Government, but especially in this area, because like scientists, are kind of seen on this pedestal, and that, like communities, can’t be involved or won’t, understand, or whatever BS they come up with and really like, when we’re making funding decisions into what research should be prioritized that should come from the communities it’s impacting it. It. truly doesn’t make any sense to fund something that patients who are experiencing that condition don’t care about like that. It doesn’t make sense, but it happens every day and so how I would, I guess I would rewrite the rules is really giving people experiencing conditions, people who that that research is actually going to impact giving them the power to decide where that funding is going And so it’’s really like adding just that voice into the rooms. And not only the voice, but giving them the power to decide and then that also comes into play when the research is actually happening, is that those people deserve to be in the room when study decisions are made when recruitment decisions are made. What’s the hypothesis? How are we going to get this out into the world, so often NIH funded research just kind of like goes off into the ether like you, you know, if you’re lucky, you can might be able to look it up on Google, Scholar, or whatever. But like the patients who are actually supposed to be you know, receiving that information benefiting from that information, do not even have access to it. And so it’s really kind of just turning it on its head and incentivizing that type of really meaningful engagement of the people that these conditions are impacting.

JP Flores (he/him): Yeah, most definitely, just out of curiosity. So I was working on the Navajo nation a couple of years ago. Does the PLRC. Do anything with indigenous folk or like? Do you actually go into communities of color. I’m just curious, because I know it’s most of it is digital. But are you all able to connect with, You know people that might not have access to the Internet and and things like that.

Lisa McCorkell: That’s been a really tough part of of what we’ve done is that we, because of both the Covid pandemic, and it being difficult for us also energy wise to to go out as like physically into communities we haven’t been able to do that, and that’s in all of our surveys. that’s like one of our biggest limitations is that this is reflective of people who have access to, internet and that is a bias sample. That’s you know we know that we’re not getting a lot of indigenous people we know we’re not getting a lot of people who yeah, like we obviously don’t have Internet access. So that’s been an area that we we want to try to improve somehow and there are some some groups and some some groups that have popped up that are forming kind of their own, like support groups and and information, sharing for Long Covid among specific communities of color like indigenous communities, and so we try to support them and outreach to them as much as we can. But that is definitely an area that needs more support. And I feel like as being really neglected in the long Covid response because also those communities are not they’re less likely to have quality access to health care, they’re less likely to even to seek health care. So yeah, that’s that’s something that we we want to focus on, and it. There are like a lot of barriers to that that we need support and in breaking down.

JP Flores (he/him): Yeah, most definitely. If you were to give like a seminar talk at a school do you know what you would talk about like? Let’s say I, let’s say I invited you hypothetically to UNC. and it was like, all right, this is Lisa. and you’re going to give it a talk on something. What would it be? It could be on anything you want? It could be on the center doing with the PLRC. It could be about just like policy change in general. It would be an audience of scientists. What do you think is the most important thing to kind of bring up with with your experience In the last couple of years

Lisa McCorkell: I would give a talk on the importance of meaningful engagement of patients. And yeah, both both like partnering you know, if people are going into the provider route, the importance of partnering with patients in their care. And then, if they’re going into the research route, the importance of of really centering the patient experience in their work but then I also because I know that that’s largely not taught in these spaces. But then I would also want to focus just generally on infectious associated chronic conditions, like what’s Long Covid is one of them, MECFS dysautonomia, these are conditions that are largely not taught in med schools. They’re not really taught and in programs, and it’s super underfunded and really needs more awareness. So I think I would have a 2 part seminar on that. Yeah.

JP Flores (he/him): Oh, don’t worry. It’d be like a 3. You could have as much time as you want to wouldn’t have to be 2 part.

Lisa: I would maybe throw in some, just in case anyone became a a policy person or in charge of anything i’d throw in some policy recommendations as well.

JP Flores (he/him): Yeah, no, you You’d You’d be surprised by how many people actually think about science policy, or just policy things in general and just don’t know where to go right, even even for me, like I I have no idea. I I know i’m interested in in policy just in general, but I couldn’t tell you what that action. What does that mean, you’re gonna put me in an office and I’m, we’re gonna have a conversation with scientists and write a policy that has to do with and how to treat patients on the daily right. Is that is that what it would look like? Like? A lot of scientists here have no idea. So they that’s why I think it could be really cool to have someone like you come in and just give a talk. So that’s kind of like a informal invitation. but–

Lisa:[Laughing] I’m down. Let’s do it.

JP Flores (he/him): Yeah, yeah and I’m curious. What advice would you have given yourself like in college like, if you could go back in time and and you can meet your college self. What would you say? Because I feel like for you? You’ve taken so many different classes. You were trying to figure out what you’re passionate about and out here here. That’s pretty cool. you know. So if you could go back in time, what would you? What you’ve told yourself.

Lisa McCorkell: I think i’d say to try not to stress so much, and that you’ll figure it out, you know, like I so clearly see now how everything got me to where I am now. and it was largely a product of me saying yes to things I was interested in, that I was passionate about, but it is not the normal kind of route you would take, and I would have never even expected I couldn’t have even dreamt of being where I am now. When I was in undergrad right like that. That was not even going to be a possibility. And so just kind of like I think, have faith in yourself and and try not to stress too much.

JP: For real

Lisa: I just I was so I was so worried and just like I had no idea what I was going to do with my life felt like I was so lost and just yeah, college was not not a great time for me. I think it’s not a great time for a lot of people like. I think it’s often glorified. But for many people it’s you know it’s. It’s really tough like you’re trying to find yourself. You’re trying to find friends like what you’re going to do for the rest of your life. And yeah, I think, just telling myself like you got it you’ll be okay, and you don’t need to have it all figured out right now, and in fact, very few people do it just that some people might seem like they do, but most people don’t. and you can always change your mind. You can always do whatever you know, just like, follow what feels right, and and you’ll be You’ll be okay. I think I could have used that type. I I feel like I’ve heard that from the mentors and stuff.

JP: Yeah

Lisa: But it is different hearing that from yourself, and like fully believing it right.

JP Flores (he/him): Right. Oh, most definitely. And and I just ask that because I know so many, so many of my friends and so many of my Mentees at my undergrad but always like oh, you’re so put together like you’re in your a Phd program right at a right undergrad, and i’m like that. Doesn’t matter like it really doesn’t like. I just figured out what I wanted to do very early, and that doesn’t mean that i’m ahead of you right? That just means that you This is what I want to do and there is no timetable for that. We’re all going to end up in the same place, anyway. So and honestly, yeah, yeah, grad school sucks. I guess this is hard man, not going to lie. It’s a lot.

Lisa McCorkell: Yeah. Grad school grad school is a whole other beast. And yeah, and and I think, even like I’ve had close friends. Go through PhD Programs and end up doing something completely different and like that’s totally fine. But, like that, experience still set them up for what came next, and even if it didn’t like it’s an experience. It’s a life experience, and I think it’s just I. I don’t know I just need to be kind of easier on ourselves, and not feel like any decision as the end all be all, or that we really have to make any like you know, final decisions about our entire life at such a young age, you know.

JP Flores (he/him): Right and it and it’s so hard to fight that societal expectation right? It’s just society or like everything that you’ve seen. Everything that’s, you know, forced down your throat is oh, you need to have things figured out, and I just don’t think that’s the case ever. Yeah, do you have any other things you want to say before I move into a little before I move into fun questions, or–

Lisa McCorkell: Um I guess I would just i’d say. I don’t know I think. if I was to like, give advice to even just other folks out there just based off my own experience. I think you know I’ve gone a very untraditional route, and I think that many people who are like successful in a lot of fields go on on traditional route, and it can be a very privilege position to to do that. But I’d say it would, to the extent you’re able to like, if something seems interesting to you, or if you’re passionate about something, go after it, and don’t let barriers like a glass ceiling, or any other type of barrier prevent you from from going after what you want. And you know, I think that the community aspect is so important and and breaking down some of those barriers is really just like getting out there and trying to find, like-minded people and pushing against the the structures that be, that’s the only way we’re really going to make any type of progress.

JP Flores (he/him): Yep. no, beautifully said. Beautifully sad. I would have said it worse than you. So that was awesome.

Lisa: I doubt it.

JP Flores (he/him): All right. Let’s move into some fun questions. I can give you some of your Friday, is it? Friday? Yeah, some of your Friday back.

JP Flores (he/him): What is your favorite song right now? And why?

Lisa McCorkell: Oh, my gosh, okay, my favorite song. So I have a thing where, like I hate choosing favorites because I like well, I stress about it, and i’m like I have so many favorites. But I actually do have a answer to this question which is, it’s Noah Kahan is the artist, and it’s the View between Villages. Do you like?–

JP Flores (he/him): I’m like obsessed with Noah Kahan, so I I saw him open for James Bay before he was big and I like I I followed him, and ever since stick season came out. That’s when I was like. Oh, now he’s now he’s blown up like now. No, but I I love No, I i’m seeing him in Raleigh, I think in July. Yeah.

Lisa McCorkell: Yeah.

JP: Did you go to the Wiltern shows. Oh, you you! You’re in Oakland right? I’m in Oakland. Yeah, I didn’t see his last stuff, but I i’m going to see him at the Greek in in La and August. I’m so excited. But I actually I –was at a I got to meet him like briefly last year. He just like happened to be where I was, it was so cool. But yeah, I don’t know I expected to become like best friends with him or something, and obviously he just like, take a picture with me, and then moved on with his life. And I was like cool it definitely in my dream like we were going to be best friends and get married, or something like that you know. I’m like oh, my God! I’m obsessed with him. He’s so amazing.

JP: I was gonna say i’m a huge no-con fan like I every all of his discography like even back I don’t know if you know the song, please, by no icon, but like back in those days I that’s how much I I love now it’s it’s been. I’m so proud of him for everything he’s done.

Lisa: I’m like i’m just so proud, right? It’s so proud.

JP: Yeah, it’s so cool it’s amazing. Yeah. I hear him in commercials now. Every tiktok is a no con song now, and i’m like, Wow, this is this is really It’s wild. How long? How far? He’s gone.

Lisa McCorkell: So it’s so great.

JP Flores (he/him): Yeah.

JP Flores (he/him): all right. What is your favorite thing to do outside of work?

Lisa McCorkell: Oh okay, I I guess it’s related. I mean, I love listening to music. I love going to concerts that has been tough with Covid now, and being more at risk and and not able to like kind of sustain a long time standing up anymore. But so I I still go to outdoor concerts and take like in California. There is a lot of them. And but yeah, that’s been, I think one of the biggest outside for me personally with with the pandemic. And but yeah, I just like I love listening to music and and love live music especially.

JP: Yeah, no. Same with me like I think this is the of the concert for me. I’m seeing Taylor Swift. Ally & AJ, Dermot Kennedy, you know people like that. I don’t know if you’re familiar with them–

Lisa: Oh my God, what a line up. That’s amazing.

JP: Oh, I know. I know. Yeah. And i’m a huge fan of like tiny desks on Youtube. Just live performances on Youtube, they’re the best.

Lisa: Totally. Oh, my gosh, yeah, I love tiny desk.

JP Flores (he/him): Yeah, this is gonna be the hardest one to answer, I think. But what is your favorite restaurant? This is a hard one, because I know you’re from California, and you’re familiar with LA and now you’re in the Bay Area, East Bay area. But that’s gonna be a hard one. But what is it? What your favorite restaurant? You could say favorite food that your meal, too.

Lisa McCorkell: Oh, okay, that’s easier. Okay, definitely favorite food is Mexican food.

JP: Okay.

Lisa McCorkell: Yeah, that’s just hands down. And I don’t know if I could even choose a favorite Mexican restaurant. But I also, I will say, a favorite restaurant that is not necessarily my favorite type of food. I think it’s like within my top for cuisine, Burma superstar is in Oakland and San Francisco, and it’s a Burmese restaurant, and it’s just incredible. I’m also i’m gluten free. I have Celiac, and they just have, like amazing gluten free options, and it’s it’s just It’s incredible. It’s so good.

JP Flores (he/him): That’s awesome. Yeah, next time I go to the Bay area for conference or something. I’ll hit you up and maybe we can go to Burma Superstar.