Mentoring, DEI in STEM, and Chasin' Waterfalls: Dr. Chrystal Starbird

Dr. Chrystal Starbird is an Assistant Professor at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill who is passionate about DEI in STEM and mentoring the next generation of diverse scientists. We had an insightful conversation ranging from actionable things institutions can do to better support historically underrepresented students to how she bumps “Everyday I’m Hustlin’” by Rick Ross when she’s in celebration mode! Enjoy!

To learn more about her research, check out her site! ( https://starbirdlab.com/)

Transcription

Transcribed by Grace Kenney (she/her)

JP Flores (he/him): What’s up y’all, it’s your host JP Flores and welcome to from where does it STEM?

JP Flores (he/him): In this episode I chatted with Dr. Chrystal Starbird. Chrystal is an assistant professor at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill and a structural biologist by training. She has won numerous awards throughout her scientific journey such as the rising black scientist award from Cell Press in 2021 and the distinguished service award in DEI from Yale University in 2022, just to name a few.

JP Flores (he/him): She has contributed to pieces such as Juneteenth in STEM and the barriers to equitable science which is published in Cell and evaluating Diversity Equity and Inclusion consulting requests which is published in trends in molecular medicine.

JP Flores (he/him): In this interview, which I conducted on October 7th 2022, we talked about how Chrystal’s transition to UNC is going, how we can make biomedical research environments more inclusive, and what actionable things we can do to improve our research environments for trainees from diverse backgrounds.

Chrystal Starbird: Um. So, in terms of background um, I went to um, UNC Charlotte actually first as an undergrad. Um, I got into a lot of schools outside of out of high school, but I was nervous about being able to afford, um the schools ultimately, even with financial aid. It just you know I was, I was being accepted at and considering admission at schools where the tuition was twice what my mom had ever made, like in a single year, and I found that really daunting. I didn’t have a lot of advice, so I actually just showed up one day. Um, Wellesley is where I decided to attend. They had like a program with MIT. Um. I had deferred for year. Um, and then decided I just didn’t think I could do that.

Chrystal Starbird: So, I actually showed up at UNC Charlotte in person, and just said, “Hey, I’m a pretty good student. Would you be willing to let me enroll this fall?” And they said, “Yes”, um, so that’s how I ended up there.

Chrystal Starbird: I ended up taking some time off, and I can talk about that briefly in a second. So, I finished about a year and a half there. I left um.

Chrystal Starbird: My husband, uh had our first child, and then went back to community college. So, I spent a year community college getting associates and science, and then I transferred to UNC Chapel Hill.

Chrystal Starbird: So, this is where I got my BS in biology and um a lot of introduction to the science. Um. I went to graduate school at Vanderbilt, but not before working for a few years. I worked at Pfizer. I worked with some other places on the UNC Campus. Um. I was part of the PREP Program, the first actually cohort of UNC PREP.

JP Flores (he/him): Quick pause. So, PREP stands for Postbaccalaureate Research Education Program. And these programs are designed for students considering pursuing a PhD in biological and biomedical sciences. So, students that have recently completed bachelor’s degrees are eligible to apply. And they usually spend a year or so on a campus of a major biomedical research institution like UNC. In order to gain and strengthen skills needed for entry and success in top-tier PhD programs. So, if you’re an undergraduate student, think about applying to one of these. Alright. Unpause.

JP Flores (he/him): Yeah.

Chrystal Starbird: So I’m aging myself here. But then I went to Vanderbilt, and um completed my doctoral work, and then I ended up at Yale as a postdoc, and now I’m here getting ready to transition into faculty at UNC. Um. Yeah. So that’s the short story I, in terms of life stuff to sort of fill that out a little bit.

Chrystal Starbird: Um, I am primarily from. I grew up in a suburb of Boston. Um. I was extremely poor, growing up, so that was our lifestyle, lived in public housing and that kind of thing. Um. And I also, you know, ended up in foster care and those kinds of things, and ultimately ended up living with my grandmother. So, when I was a freshman in college, um, my grandmother unfortunately became sick with Colon Cancer and my brother at the time was a high school, uh sophomore, I think um, and she was his caretaker.

Chrystal Starbird: And so, um I became the caretaker essentially. And so you know, all throughout college, and you know um. Those times I’ve worked um, so I’ve always worked full time. I worked at that time taking care of my brother, and that ultimately was too much. And so I took a little bit of time, got things together, and went back to school, and I think that’s important for people to hear, because now people look at you and think, oh, what an amazing trajectory! You know, UNC Chapel Hill to Vanderbilt to Yale. Things are all golden. But I had pauses in there, and periods where I had to figure things out, and I think that that’s okay to kind of be that nontraditional student.

JP Flores (he/him): Yeah, definitely. It’s. It’s not always sunshine and rainbows right like [inaudible] the same spot. But you can’t relate discounts or uh invalidate all of your experiences. Yeah.

JP Flores (he/him): So, that’s a really interesting story. And I’m curious. So, a lot of people talk about finding their communities growing up, and when navigating spaces like higher education. Um. What were your support systems like in these times? You know I know you mentioned you met your uh now, husband, um, and I know he’s interviewing at Duke I believe I got it right.

Chrystal Starbird: Yeah. I know I know. We will. We’ll stop with the blue jokes.

JP Flores (he/him): But how has, you know, different support. How have different support systems influenced you? How, integral has this been for you? Were they like more um family, friend-type, people were they more, you know, classmate.

Chrystal Starbird: I mean, that’s a great question. If I’m being completely honest with you though, um, in the early years I didn’t have much of a support system, and maybe that’s part of the reason I took sort of this really nontraditional route. But I make um, you know I wouldn’t change anything when it comes down to it. I learned lessons at every phase of my life. Um. But unfortunately, um, you know, I really just didn’t kind of reach out. I was the kind of person who was like: I’ve always figured things out myself. I’ll figure it out, and I’ll keep figuring it out. Um, obviously that’s changed. Um. When I met my husband. He has been a tremendous support like throughout school. And actually, when I went to graduate school. Um. By the time I finished, we had three children, and so um he actually, um, step back from work and only worked part time. And so we had, like a very nontraditional setup where he was really sort of managing the kids and taking care of most the household things, and that, of course, allowed me to really sort of do my science.

Chrystal Starbird: Now, beyond that, when I was in graduate school. Um, I developed like a women in science organization that brought together under, presented uh women and not beyond women in science as well. It was just really about bringing people together. Um. And then I did the same thing at Yale, and I’ve realized how incredibly important it is to have those support systems. So, I would say, you know I didn’t really have them early on in my career.

Chrystal Starbird: But in being in PREP probably was the first time I realized that value of sitting around the table with peers who are going through some of the same things as you who’ve walked through some of the same things in their life as you. And, you know, when you reach those moments of uncertainty. Um, they can say, you know I’ve been through that, too, and that’s validating. And so you know. Now, I’m a huge proponent for developing and building these support networks and for institutions supporting these networks. Um the development of them. Yeah.

JP Flores (he/him): Yeah. And And you know these efforts. They always feel like an uphill battle. What motivates you. I’m sure it’s your life story. But also, how do you get through the days that are like? Oh, it’s really hard today. I I can’t move on. Like for me, I take it day by day

Chrystal Starbird: Yeah.

JP Flores (he/him): Like, I look at my week. I’m kind of just overwhelmed, and I’m like I don’t know if I can handle this. So that’s kind of kind of how I deal with it, right? What were your. What are your strategies?

Chrystal Starbird: Yeah. Um. Some may be applicable to others, and some not. But that’s how it always is right.

Chrystal Starbird: Um, to be honest with you, being a black woman in science is inherently motivating for me. When I think about my trajectory, and not encountering another black female professor, for, like essentially all of my training um, and except for when I went to conferences, and I think about the impact once I finally did of knowing someone and seeing someone that looked like me in the role that I dream to be in. Um. I think, okay, on the really hard days. I really do think you can do this. You’re capable of getting through this, and there are people that are watching you. Um. And I don’t mean this as like a bad, you know, it’s not pressure, but in a motivating way. There are people who are watching you and cheering you on, and who will, you know, be successful in their own careers because of your success, so you can’t quit. Um. But then there’s also things like I, you know, I mentioned that I was extremely poor growing up. I also grew up in a household, where my mom was unfortunately addicted to drugs and alcohol. And uh, was a single parent. And so, um, you know, this is essentially the reason why I was in and out of foster care.

Chrystal Starbird: So I’ve been through things right. Um. We all have been through things, but I remind myself of that on the really hard days. I’m like, Listen. You have, you know, survived things that a lot of people couldn’t survive. You can survive this. This is something you’re choosing. Like when you were a child, you didn’t choose those things that you survived, but you still survive them.

Chrystal Starbird: This is something that you’re having a hard time with it. But you love what you’re doing. You love this science, you chose this, you can survive it. You can make it through, and so like that’s kind of, um what generally motivates me on those days. And then the last thing is just, you know my family. Of course. I’m like you know, girl, your a mom. You got bills to pay. You got kids who look up to you like you must get through this. It’s not optional, like. Pick yourself up, and you know, allow yourself to have that time to be like. However long it needs to be, an hour or something. Just sit there and kind of wallow, and do what you need to do, and then you get yourself together, and you get out there, and you do what you do best.

JP Flores (he/him): Yeah. I’m so glad you’re at UNC. How does it feel to be to be back? Um, Actually, can I ask a better question: Why are you back? Why did you choose UNC?

Chrystal Starbird: Yeah. Yeah. Um, I have to say like, and this is not like sincerely to through any shade on any other institutions.

JP Flores (he/him): Yeah, no.

Chrystal Starbird: But. And I say that because I’ve been at some of the best institutions in the world, I’ve been really lucky in that sense, and they’ve been and lived up to their reputations in many ways. But UNC is not only a great place for science, but people are nice.

JP Flores (he/him): Yeah. Yeah.

Chrystal Starbird: Sometimes. That’s really really important, You know. You talk about those hard days. You’re going to have those everywhere. But when you walk out in the hallway, and somebody is like: Hey, you look a little, are you okay like? How are you doing today? Or um. Oh, can we have lunch again, like you know lunch was fine. They seem like small things, but, this part of making you feel like a community of making you feel like people are concerned for you this care, this real collegiality is something that, in my personal experience, is unique to UNC. And I wanted that, um, back. And you know, ever since I’ve been here, because your first question was, how has it been? Um, I’ve experienced that, and it’s been wonderful. You know, like in other words, you know, in some of the other scientific environments I’ve been at. They’re wonderful environments for science, but they’re also in some ways more formal, if you will. Um. And so I sort of adopt to that formality. Um, but it’s. I. It’s natural for me to just be me um, and to just, you know, make jokes and like have fun.

Chrystal Starbird: Um, when possible, you know I can be serious, people can tell you for sure, but I like to be able to have that freedom to feel like you can walk in, and you know, make a joke about your kids or something, and people are like: That’s not professional or something, and I feel like you know, no environment is perfect. But I feel like you get that here at UNC, and I appreciate that a lot, and I felt like for launching my faculty career. I wanted to be in a place where I felt fully supported in doing the crazy things that I want to do. And being more authentically myself.

JP Flores (he/him): Yeah, yeah, most definitely that those are the everything you just said, are the reasons why I chose. I I’m a west coast boy through and through. UNC’s community by itself was enough to like really reel me in. And now I’m in a lab where I wake up, and I’m excited to go to lab. Like oh, I’m so excited to share this joke I’m so excited to

Chrystal Starbird: Yeah!

JP Flores (he/him): Play my Mini basketball hoop [laughter] in the in the computational office. Um.

Chrystal Starbird: Yeah.

JP Flores (he/him): But yeah, I guess more now on the topic of like diversity, equity, inclusion. Now that you’re a professor here, or about to be, I guess I’m sure you know, you have a voice right? So how do you plan on using that voice here? Have you started thinking about how we can make UNC even better than it already is?

Chrystal Starbird: Yeah, of course! This is what I’ve always

[inaudible]

Chrystal Starbird: I know, I. This is what I think about all the time. Yeah, I. First, I’ll just say, you know, sometimes people give you the advice, or they used to give you the advice when I was younger. Don’t be the squeaky wheel like going in. No, I just scratch that advice. Um, I think you know I’ve spent a lot of time thinking about and actually improving DEI institutions, and I think there’s a way to make sure that your voice is heard. Some people are going to get mad. Those people are always going to be mad, no matter who makes the suggestion. Um, this is not about, you know. You have to come in and be forceful, and you know I don’t know um. So that that’s sort of a um, miss speaking. I mean you’d have to be forceful, but not in a forceful way. If that makes any sense right, you have to be strong at getting your point across, and explaining to people, like, why this is important.

Chrystal Starbird: Um. And I think you know I look forward to here at UNC in small and big ways advocating for this, you know, like, for example, I’ve already asked, um, you know, as I’m setting up my lab and thinking about like future travel for trainees and stuff, you know. I’ve asked questions about why can’t I put these certain things on my T And E card? And who do I need to talk to, to-to ask why this can’t happen.

JP Flores (he/him): Can you explain why you are so passionate about that. I think I saw something. But because of your own experiences right?

Chrystal Starbird: Yeah! It is because of my own experiences. So, um, it’s a small thing to some people, but, but not a small thing to people like me, and I think. Actually, it’s a really huge thing in science, and that is the reimbursement culture. Um. And you know the- When I was a graduate student I had, I was lucky to have many grants and whatnot, you know, as an NSF Fellow and I had other grants at different times. I always had money to travel. Um. But I only went to one conference because it took three months to pay me back after going to the conference, and I was raising three kids at that time on a graduate student salary, and it was impossible.

JP Flores (he/him): Yep.

Chrystal Starbird: And I think about that now, because, you know, there’s papers that have been out that a study like citation bias, and these kinds of things and citations are important when you come up for tenure, um, and then you learn about the fact that underrepresented minorities tend to have overall less citations. And you know, you ask yourself why that is, and then you hear from other people that I couldn’t go to many conferences. My PI wouldn’t pay for me to go to conferences. I never asked my PI if they could help me pay for conferences. You hear this over and over again, and you see a pattern, and the reality is that people can’t cite your science if they don’t know about your science

Chrystal Starbird: Conferences are an opportunity to share the great work that you’ve been doing, and if you’re not able to go, um, to the conferences and present your work.

Chrystal Starbird: Then you know it’s just a few people who really bother to go through each article in the magazine and read it, who might have the potential or people who you collaborate with, or who hear directly about your work that are going to cite you. So, I think my point here is that, I think at least some of the citation bias that we see is due to this. This-this phenomenon of underrepresented and sometimes international students being able to go to less conferences because there’s less support because of this reimbursement culture. They don’t have credit cards because it’s difficult to get, and I would like to see that stop. Um. I just think it’s silly.

Chrystal Starbird: I think. You know we have solutions for this. If somebody has funds to support a conference, uh, attendance. The reason they shouldn’t go shouldn’t be because they can’t float the cost for three months, while the administration figures it out. You know people should be supported in presenting their science. Um. So yeah, obviously it’s something that I’m really passionate about. But, because I think it’s a bigger issue than people realize, and I think there’s a lot of things like that. There are other topics like this that, um, I could go on and on about um, and that’s, I think, the power of me being in the room, you know. Somebody will say: Oh, we’re-we’re changing the way we pay graduate students. It’s not a big deal, and somebody like me is in the room to be like. No, this is actually a really big deal.

JP Flores (he/him): Yeah.

Chrystal Starbird: Like impact their science, right? Anyways. Yeah,

JP Flores (he/him): Yeah. So, I cut you off in the middle of that. Was there anything else that you wanted to kind of share about? Um, using your voice. Are there any other initiatives that you know you’ve been wanting to see, or just like drawing from your experiences, or uh colleagues that you know. Is there anything else any other issues with and honestly, it’s just systemic things, right. All in all.

Chrystal Starbird: Yeah. Exactly.

JP Flores (he/him): There’s a lot of things I want to change. But.

Chrystal Starbird: There’s many issues, many issues. Um, I’d like to see, you know, more mental health support, and I’d like to specifically see mental health professionals that are either trained in or belong to underrepresented groups.

Chrystal Starbird: Um, because I think that’s-that’s important. I, myself um, you know. I-I’m a huge proponent of therapy. I think it’s important, you know. The schools will often tell you we have the resources. Um. But then, when you go to schedule, it’s like, there’s not an appointment for another month or that kind of thing, and I myself went, um, to therapy when I was in graduate school at one point, and the therapist actually told me: You know, I just not sure that I can really, um, give you advice about this when I was talking about like a race related incident that it happened, and it just made me realize, it’s not that, of course, somebody who’s not under-underrepresented can’t get you give you advice, but that person didn’t have the training or the expertise to be able to help you navigate this situation. And so, when you think about all of the u-underrepresented scholars who experience burnout and, um, these kinds of things like making sure that they have adequate support, so that.

Chrystal Starbird: So, my big thing is retention, I guess that’s the. Anything that I think will support retention. Anything that says we’re not just bringing underrepresented or international students here, but we believe in them. We are behind them. We want to support them fully in their endeavors. Um, is an issue of importance to me, and something that you know. I hope to be able to advocate on.

JP Flores (he/him): Yeah, and, you know, I-we talked about this before we started the interview, but I’ve been inspired all week by, you know, tweets and stories coming out about, you know, that the newest Nobel Laureate, Carolyn Bertozzi.

JP Flores (he/him): Quick pause. Fun fact. Carolyn Bertozzi is actually going to be on from where does it STEM very soon. Stay tuned. Alright. Unpause.

JP Flores (he/him): I think she does a great job really, uh, broadcasting that in order to advance science, diversity is essential and leads to discovery.

Chrystal Starbird: Mhm.

JP Flores (he/him): Um. Can I get your thoughts on that? Why has it taken this long for someone to say that, or at least, for someone to have the chance to even say that. Right like I-I guess, now I you myself, but like I’m still new to science, right? And then there’s. Right when I entered I knew there were problems. So, what are your thoughts on why that is?

Chrystal Starbird: Yeah, yeah, you know that’s a hard one. Um. Only because I have lots of thoughts. But what to say. Um.

Chrystal Starbird: You know, I think for-for many years, the majority of scientists looked a certain way and thought a certain way. Um, and I’m not just talking about race here, or even gender, you know we [drops off] There was an article recently that was published about the majority. Saying that the majority of um scientists have um parents who are also professors like that kind of thing, right? So, there was a mentality that was sort of being reinforced. And I think when people won these prizes before they just didn’t see diversity as the focus. You know they-that I think you know there’s many reasons for that. But one of the mindsets is that-that does that really even matter? Just do science right.

JP Flores (he/him): Yeah.

Chrystal Starbird: And so, of course, to me and uh to you to see a nobel laureate, or it come up and say: Hey! Diversity was crucial to the advancement, to the type of science and the creativity we were able to, um, have in our lab. Um, is kind of an amazing thing, and I think it will have huge impacts because people listen to nobel laureates tell them what makes great science, and you’re right. In the past, nobody, you know, that I know of has essentially said: diversity is what makes great science. And so I’m really really amazed to see that, um. And I think, you know, as we go forward. I’m hopeful that this this will be part of a bigger change in how people view science. Um, I think what I mean by that is, a lot of times, when you know, because when I first started in science they would bring in students from underrepresented backgrounds or international backgrounds, and it would be an idea of assimilation. Can they assimilate to our mentality here? Um. And so, you know, they’d bring someone in. Do they speak exactly like we speak? Um, you know. Did they go about their science when we go about their science? Do they keep type of hours we expect them to keep. It was very much so about one size fits all. And that was the metric of success. Well, that person just didn’t fit it just didn’t work out. It didn’t really matter sometimes how brilliant somebody was. You know, you’d have somebody who was acing their classes and about to leave their lab. And this kind of thing happened over and over again, right, because they didn’t fit into the culture of science.

Chrystal Starbird: But what I think is awesome now is that, many of us are sort of throwing out that idea of a culture of science, and embracing this idea that, really science is made better by having people from different backgrounds come in and try to tackle a problem, and that their different approaches are actually really valuable to the scientific to scientific pursuit. And, so you know, I’m excited by that. I-Yeah, there’s many reasons that it maybe didn’t exist in the past. Um, but I guess I look forward, and I’m like, I think this will be something that’s important, truly important in the future. It won’t just be that people will say: We have to have diversity in science to meet a quota or to look good on billboards, but that they’ll actually recognize the value of that diversity in the scientific enterprise. Yeah.

JP Flores (he/him): Quick question. So, I try to stay involved in like admissions, processes, And first year group processes. When can you accept rotation students?

[Laughter]

Chrystal Starbird: Yeah. Um, I can accept rotation students the spring in the spring.

JP Flores (he/him): In this spring? Oh!

Chrystal Starbird: So yeah, yeah. So I’m working on getting on the rotation board. Now, I’m super excited to start meeting students. Yeah, Um. So, I’m take my first one this spring. Yeah.

JP Flores (he/him): Okay, that’s actually great to know, because I’m currently a mentor for a lot of the first years right now, and they’re struggling to find rotations that they’d be interested in, and they all want to try structural biology and like all of these things. So that’s actually, I’m going to [inaudible]

Chrystal Starbird: Yeah, send them my way. JP Flores (he/him): Yeah, cool.

Chrystal Starbird: Yeah.

JP Flores (he/him): Um anyways, back on the back on the other topic. So what? And we talked about this a little bit. What barriers in Academia lead to the lack of diversity on campuses right? There’s problems everywhere, recruitment and retention back from colleagues and or administration. As blatant as possible, what do we actually like, actually it’s not-it’s not we right?

Chrystal Starbird: Right, right.

[Laughter]

JP Flores (he/him): What needs to happen, I guess, is what I mean to say. Is it a matter of policy change? More grassroots stuff? Multi-pronged approaches? Like what are what are the most glaring um problems that institutions face? Um, that really create those barriers?

Chrystal Starbird: Yeah, I think it’s all of that

JP Flores (he/him): Yeah, right?

Chrystal Starbird: So let’s just check now. Um, I think it’s also, it’s-it’s, I think, what needs to happen first, and I see this happening, in my opinion, is a mindset change.

[Inaudible]

Chrystal Starbird: Right? Exactly. Like, in many ways like, for example, if they bring students from the various backgrounds, including students like from rural areas, or something who may not have had some of the scientific training the others have had, and they can’t have the attitude of: We’re bringing these people here. We’re interviewing them. We thought they were amazing, and we’re just gonna like throw them out there. And oh, sorry. They didn’t cut it. What do we do?

JP Flores (he/him): Yeah.

Chrystal Starbird: Not like that. That kind of mindset needs to go. They need to acknowledge. Okay, everybody has unique challenges, and everybody has unique strengths. And how can we play to their strengths, and how can we support them in their areas where they may be weaker? Um. And that doesn’t mean one size fits all. So, you know, like when I went to graduate school. Um. I yeah. I didn’t have the best GPA out of undergrad. It wasn’t horrible, but it wasn’t great, and so they assumed I was academically challenged, which was not correct. You know, I just was raising two kids and working full time and raising a brother. While, I was going to school. Um. And so when I came in they were like, hey, we’re gonna set you up for this um. We’re gonna set you up with this, uh, required tutoring sessions, and I was like what?

Chrystal Starbird: I don’t, I sincerely don’t need the tutoring sessions, and I didn’t. I did really, really well. I was like second in my class uh in graduate school, but it’s that assumption. That was the problem like. So, if people brought people in, and the mindset was: Hey, we’re going to meet you where you’re at. Let’s discuss with you like what you need to feel supported. What you need to succeed in this environment, and let’s be willing to embrace what’s different about you, you know. So, if you come into a lab and like. There’s a student who, for whatever reason, just really um prefers to work, you know, uh, early in the morning or late at night. Does that ultimately matter as long as there’s some overlap? Um. Maybe there’s something in their life that creates that need, and so like that kind of thing, like being flexible. And I mean at the institutional level, too, because institutions tell– they set– they set the tone, if you will. As to what’s acceptable, and institutions I think, need to embrace this idea of truly embracing diversity. Truly, you know, supporting the students they bring in. Um, yeah, I just, I think it sounds simple, but it’s a huge thing, and this is what I think is happening now, and I’m excited about is sort of this mindset change. The other thing is, they have to say what they mean and mean what they say, right? So, a lot of universities on paper have great diversity initiatives, have support for students who’ve had bad things happen to them.

Chrystal Starbird: But then, when you talk to the students, or you know, because, as somebody who’s mentored, like many, many, many students across the country, it’s: this happened to me, and nobody did anything. You know. This happened to me, and I told people, and nobody helped me. And you hear this over and over again, and it needs to become unacceptable for that kind of thing to happen. It needs to become such that if the worst things happen and they do happen, unfortunately. Sometimes there’s been, you know, students. And not in [drops off] I want to disclaimer not any institutions that I’ve been at. I’ll just say like sincerely, but there’s been students I’ve heard of, who were literally called the N word by a professor who was yelling at them during an argument. Right? So, if that happens, that person should have serious repercussions

JP Flores (he/him): Yeah.

Chrystal Starbird: And at the bare minimum they should not be allowed to take another underrepresented student the very next year.

JP Flores (he/him): Yeah.

Who, then hears about this story, you know, as they’re trying to navigate and deal with all the things that graduate students normally deal with.

Chrystal Starbird: We need to have true accountability, I guess is what I’m saying, and I think that will go a long way, because what ends up happening a lot to students who leave the academic environment. And I’m not talking about somebody who wants to go into industry or policy or something. That’s great. I think it’s amazing, and we need to support other careers as well. We don’t do a great job of that. But somebody who wanted to stay an academic route and leaves a lot of times, they’re just tired of dealing with the same things without any sort of difference in response or support.

Chrystal Starbird: They’re tired of, you know, being on posters for the school with smiling faces. But then, behind the scenes being told, they’re not good enough, you know. Being told they don’t belong in many ways, and so I think that’s why I focus on what really needs to happen is like a culture and a mindset change, and that will go a long way to doing all the smaller, or not smaller, but the other things that need to be done, you know, to really sort of support diversity, equity and inclusion.

JP Flores (he/him): Yeah, yeah, I’m trying to think of ways to make that actionable, right? So, we’ve been playing around with the idea. I’m on the bioinformatics and computational biology steering committee as well, and I know other departments are. Uh. When they recruit students, the director of that program actually me with each individual student to kind of see where they’re at to see how they can support them. I think-I think that is also a big thing, right, like having a director or someone in power make themselves familiar to you.

Chrystal Starbird: Yeah.

JP Flores (he/him): Right?

Chrystal Starbird: Absolutely.

JP Flores (he/him): And having that personal experience. Yeah. So

Chrystal Starbird: The other thing to making it actionable is that they need to listen to recommendations from people like you. When you’re on committees, you must have encountered this at some points, right, and you spend a lot of time thinking about what needs to happen, and then you make a recommendation, and nothing happens or part of what you recommend happens, and that kind of thing honestly needs to stop. If the people who are spending all their time thinking about these problems give you solutions, the universities need to be much more open to just taking on those solutions. Okay, we’ve heard from the experts, if you will, and we’re going to listen. And we’re going to implement this. Yeah.

JP Flores (he/him): Yeah, I completely agree. And I love my departments, and you know I’m not basing on it, or anything. But I really like how they try and incorporate student feedback.

JP Flores (he/him): Um. I think they need. I think they could do a better job too.

Chrystal Starbird: Yeah. Well, that’s the thing like we love our environments. Like we choose. For the most part we choose them for a reason, but that doesn’t mean that our environments are perfect Right? So that’s the other hard thing. Sometimes people what they hear criticism of an environment, what they hear is: this place is horrible. Don’t bother coming here, and that’s-that’s almost never true. Right? Um, most of the time we were in an environment that we’re in, because we’ve chosen that environment. But we’ve recognized some things that that definitely need to be better.

Chrystal Starbird: I often think of it. I often tell people it’s kind of like, because I’m a mom from my perspective, like having kids right. I love my kids to death. No question. Right? But if they’re doing something wrong, they’re gonna hear from me, like, it’s just that simple, you know? And, so criticism is not saying: I don’t love this place. I don’t support this place. I don’t think this is a great academic institution. Criticism is saying. I think it could be better. I know it could be better. Right?

JP Flores (he/him): Yeah. I hate the comparison of like: Oh, you’re at UNC, it’s a lot better than like this institution, right? And I’m like I don’t care about the other institution. The point is, I’m at UNC and I want to improve the institution. Like it is great. Don’t get me wrong, but it can be better. Just to reiterate what you’re saying.

Chrystal Starbird: Yeah, no, absolutely. Same thing like I chose UNC over many places, because for reasons I really believe in what UNC is doing. That doesn’t mean I think everything that UNC does is amazing, and couldn’t be a little bit better. Um. And you know that’s part of what I hope to be able to be a pa- a small part of helping to improve. Um. Yeah. But same, same yes.

JP Flores (he/him): Yeah, I think, I think you’re my first UNC Professor, that I’ve interviewed for this, and I’m glad that it’s it, was you.

[Laughter]

Chrystal Starbird: That’s interesting.

JP Flores (he/him): Um, uh. Is there anything else you’d want to say on this platform? So more free rain right like, if you were to be put on TV or something, and had the opportunity, uh, to connect to young students, or uh your colleagues, uh, directors, administration, or really anyone at all like. What would you say?

Chrystal Starbird: Yeah. You know. Uh. That’s what that’s I always say like, I wish people would listen to me more. And now I’m here and I’m like hmm, what do I say?

[Laughter]

JP Flores (he/him): Yeah.

Chrystal Starbird: I guess, I would say, um, it shouldn’t be this hard for somebody like me to succeed in science, and like I’ll say that again. It shouldn’t be this hard for somebody like me to succeed in science. To students who are on who are thinking about doing this, um, hopefully I can show them that it is possible it’s absolutely possible you can do it, but at the same time, for the institutional level, you could have made the journey a little bit easier. Right?

[Laughter]

JP Flores (he/him): We laugh, but literally, it’s like huhuhuhu?

Chrystal Starbird: Yeah, yeah, right? I mean, there were times when, um I mean, because so many things, because that’s why there’s many issues that are important to me. Um, there were times like, cause there was never any child care where it was nearly impossible to balance. Um. There were times when my paycheck didn’t come in time, because universities just have these weird administrative things, you know. “Oh, sorry we didn’t get that checked off in time.” And suddenly, without any warning, you don’t have pay, and you have three kids, and now you’re at the food bank, even though you’re you know, a PhD scientist or a doctoral student like these kinds of things shouldn’t happen right?

Chrystal Starbird: My journey is one where, um, at the end of the day there was success. I was extremely determined, and that’s my personality. But I have seen so many amazingly brilliant, dedicated, passionate scientists, um, leave, um, and I don’t just mean leave Academia because I don’t consider that necessarily a loss. They are contributing to the world in amazing ways.

Chrystal Starbird: But I mean leave like in the second year of grad school and that kind of thing like before they even have a masters and, um, I just don’t, and there’s many reasons, but they usually come down to treatment that they received, but didn’t get any reconci- didn’t get any, um, you know true response or support from, financial issues, um, you know. So, they bring students from low socioeconomic backgrounds, and they expect that they have credit cards to put two thousand dollars for a conference on, and you know that they can deal with: Hey? Sorry, admin just change the way we pay students. So, you’re not going to get paid for a month, like you know they expected that those kinds of things can happen. I have friends who’ve been homeless during graduate school. Um, I don’t know how I didn’t get there myself at some point, and so the overall message is it just shouldn’t be this hard for somebody like me, who really, I think, you know, has a lot to give and add to science to make it to this point. Um, yeah. And so, I would love to see institutions be more open to finding ways to support things.

Chrystal Starbird: Like stop throwing up their hands and saying: This is just not the way we do things, you know. I can’t put this on my P. Card. I can’t help you with this. I can’t. You know. Let’s find solutions, because I promise we have the resources and the brain power to be able to do that.

Chrystal Starbird: But also for students, um, I really encourage you. I really want to encourage students to speak up about the difficulties they’re having, and I can tell you that unfortunately you won’t always be listened to, but you can’t be helped if you don’t say anything about what’s happening, you know, like I said, I mentioned I had a friend who was homeless during graduate school for a certain part. They didn’t tell anybody, um, and you know, except for a couple of friends. And uh this is not in any way, shape or form to knock their decision making because they did what they felt they had to do at the time.

Chrystal Starbird: But I do feel that, you know, had they been able to speak about some of the hardships they were experiencing, that possibly the university or the science community, could have supported them. And so um, you know. But that’s difficult.

Chrystal Starbird: And this is another thing I’ll say, because I acknowledged that it’s difficult to be othered science, and when you have to come up and say that something is happening to you that’s different than what the majority experience. That’s another way. You feel other right.

Chrystal Starbird: If you have to come and say like, I can’t afford to eat this month, people might help, but you might also feel a little bit embarrassed, and it’s not about feeling embarrassed, but it’s embarrassed, because, you know you’re not like the majority right? And so that’s difficult. And at the same time, though like I promise you that there will be people like me who will continue to bring these issues to light, to continue to advocate for you and make the environments better. Um.

Chrystal Starbird: But like know, you can succeed. Know, it is possible. Um, it is hard, but it can be done if it’s really what you want, and I think that’s another big thing. People should have the right to decide what they really want to do unencumbered is like my ideal version of the world, right?

Chrystal Starbird: If somebody wants to be a scientist, if somebody wants to be a lawyer, or whatever it is, if they have what it takes. And I think most people have what it takes. So that’s a broad statement. Um. As long as they have the passion, then they should be able to do that, right?

JP Flores (he/him): I’m: about to run through this wall right now.

[Laughter]

JP Flores (he/him): Yeah, no, no, that’s amazing. Yeah, I again, I’m really glad you you’re at UNC. And if you ever need like a student, or just like need a student perspective or just need help with anything. Feel free to reach out.

Chrystal Starbird: Yeah, I definitely will, definitely.

JP Flores (he/him): Yeah, that wasn’t the end of the interview. By the way, I still got, I got fun questions to ask.

Chrystal Starbird: Yeah, I’m like, mic drop!

[Laughter]

JP Flores (he/him): Yeah, I was like, alright I guess this is it right?

[Laughter]

JP Flores (he/him): Um, Okay. Fun question number one. Do you have a celebration song for whenever something goes right, and if so, what is it? Mine right now is I Feel Good by James Brown.

Chrystal Starbird: Oh. I love that! I love that. Um. This is gonna be weird because it’s really like my motivating song. And but I listen to it oddly enough, also, when things go right, so, it’s. Um yeah, Everyday I’m Hustlin by Rick Ross.

JP Flores (he/him): [Laughter] Hahaha, yes! We would listen to that all the time in the locker room whenever we go out to play baseball and stuff like that.

Chrystal Starbird: Yes, I love it, because there’s so much strength in that song like your hustling, but also like I’m the boss like, you gotta tell yourself like you can do it. Yeah, anyways, that’s-that’s it. That’s my song.

JP Flores (he/him): Um, what is your favorite thing to do outside of science?

Chrystal Starbird: Hmm. Probably hiking

JP Flores (he/him): Ok.

Chrystal Starbird: Um, but not just hiking, because that sounds like I love just like walking for miles on end. Um, without a reason.

JP Flores (he/him): Especially in North Carolina where everything is flat?

[Laughter]

Chrystal Starbird: Yeah, no, I like hiking to see waterfalls. I am a huge waterfall fan, and I love swimming so like I, if there’s, if it’s allowed, and maybe a couple of times when it wasn’t quite allowed

[Laughter]

Chrystal Starbird: I will jump into the water. So that is like, yeah, actually, I’ll tell you a quick story like you didn’t ask for stories, but I was in Texas um a couple of summers ago, like it was our first trip, um. First moment outside of the house during the pandemic, which was difficult. But we like went down to see my brother, who hadn’t seen, and they were having a baby and whatnot. But anyways the story.

Chrystal Starbird: We went hiking in Texas to see what was supposed to be an amazing waterfall, and I’m like waterfalls in Texas? Like this is amazing.

JP Flores (he/him): [Laughter] I know right?

Chrystal Starbird: I saw the pictures. I was like, we’re here. Can I, when I tell you, we hiked two and a half miles in some of the hottest weather I’ve ever experienced in my life, and there was no waterfall and dried up, and nobody bothered to tell us or put a sign up or tell any of the other people on the trail that the waterfall had dried up.

Chrystal Starbird: So like literally. I’m sure all the locals knew, but like literally, there’s like many of us walking down, and unfortunately we hadn’t met anybody on the way down. But we met several people like on our way back up, and we were like: you know there’s no waterfall? And they were like, Are you kidding? And I was like: no, there’s no waterfall. And some people still went, and I knew they were also going to get down there and be like, Where is the water? So, anyways.

JP Flores (he/him): You are the change in the world. Because, like in LA, or like, like places like Colorado, Portland, Oregon, Washington. People say that they’re like oh, like keep an eye out for this blah blah blah. So that’s funny. I’m glad I’m glad I’m sad that no one does that no one did that on your little hike.

Chrystal Starbird: I know, I don’t understand it actually. In LA like I-I went, I did that hike to see the Hollywood sign when I was there.

JP Flores (he/him): Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah

Chrystal Starbird: But like I don’t think. I think I got lost. I don’t know how, but there’s like many paths on those trails.

JP Flores (he/him): Yeah, I actually know what you’re talking about.

Chrystal Starbird: I also didn’t know you could drive up to the observatory, so like I-I was at the bottom of the hill, and I walked up like two miles just to get to the observatory. And then I like hiked near the Hollywood sign, and I like was out of water. I was like, why is it so dry here. And then I literally met this guy named Guy who was selling drinks

[Laughter]

Chrystal Starbird: And I was like: Thank you!

JP Flores (he/him): That’s awesome.

Chrystal Starbird: Yeah, you’re amazing. But yeah, but people did. Yeah, people were much more talkative in LA, like they were just telling you like: Oh, this trails closed up ahead. Like that kind of thing. None of that. None of that in Texas.

JP Flores (he/him): Yeah. Hiking culture. Yeah. Have you been to like Oregon or Washington?

Chrystal Starbird: Uh. Yeah, I’m. I tell people I’m from Boston, because I think I am. But I actually was born in Tacoma, Washington. JP Flores (he/him): Oh, Tacoma! I have a really close friend in Tacoma.

Chrystal Starbird: Yeah, but I only lived there till I was six, so I barely have memories of it. But I did go back a few times. Um. So that’s why I say I’m from Boston, because, like if I say I’m from Tacoma, people are like, oh, what about this? And, ya know that? And you’re like? Oh, no, I really kind of grew up in Boston.

JP Flores (he/him): Gotcha, yeah.

Chrystal Starbird: But I love that area. Mount Rainier. All of that.

JP Flores (he/him): Yeah. Cool.

JP Flores (he/him): Uh, all right. Well, I don’t have any other questions. Um, but

Chrystal Starbird: That’s it?

[Laughter]

JP Flores (he/him): Thank you for taking the time to do this. Yeah, that was super fun.

[Laughter]

Chrystal Starbird: Yeah, Cool, cool. Thank you. This is great. Yeah, Um. Oh, I have a question

JP Flores (he/him): I’m really glad that you-

Chrystal Starbird: No, go ahead.

JP Flores (he/him): I’m really glad that you’re at UNC like it’s-it’s really nice hearing that perspective from an incoming faculty member, or I guess our factulty member now right?

Chrystal Starbird: Yeah.

JP Flores (he/him): Yeah, I just hope that um. It’s not overwhelming and stressful, because I hear that a lot like

Chrystal Starbird: Hmm. I will tell you it’s gonna be stressful. Um. It will without a doubt. I’m. I’m also like built for this, though, like like you, in in graduate school and all throughout, I’ve always been doing multiple things like people used to make a joke. Okay, I’ll tell you this like before we go. Um. I don’t know if you saw this. But um Carolyn Bertozzi was um like old bandmates with Thomas Morello from Rage Against the Machine!

JP Flores (he/him): Yeah, that’s cool!

Chrystal Starbird: Which is like super cool right? Um.

Chrystal Starbird: In high school people used to call me the machine, and it was that kind of thing like it was a joke like Rage Against the Machine, but the running joke was like I was literally everything at one point. I was class president. I was co-captain of the basketball team, the mock trial team. I was also a copy editor of the school paper, so it was like. It was like this SNL joke right like. What do you need? Oh, let me put on my other hat like kind of you know.

[Laughter]

Chrystal Starbird: Um. And I know you’re very familiar with this. Hearing, you know, just about this hearing you talk a-a few minutes ago, so were you- It’s not that we-we should be always doing all these things, because sometimes you have to focus. But we’re used to it right? So, there will be stresses. Um, there will be times when I’m like, okay, I need to focus on self-care for a little bit. Um, but I’m here for it, and I’m made for it. So, we’ll see

JP Flores (he/him): Yeah, my friends talk to me about that all the time, and I’m like it’s not that I like being busy. Or it’s not that I like that I just want to do stuff. It’s-it’s the passion. The passion always triumphs over the stress.

Chrystal Starbird: Yeah.

JP Flores (he/him): Yeah, I get that a lot. But I’m doing it for the reason. It’s not like I’m just doing this all willy nilly. Right?

Chrystal Starbird: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Life has to have meaning. I don’t think you should stress yourself out. But whatever your meaning is like, you know, you’ll have energy for that, like you said.

JP Flores (he/him): Yeah. And that’s why I like doing all these this outreach stuff. Because I like helping people find that meaning. Because hopefully, we can normalize, not for like toxic work, work, work, life right. But the more this is my passion. This is why I do this.

Chrystal Starbird: Mhm.

JP Flores (he/him): That’s-that’s my big motivation, I would say.

[Laughter]

Chrystal Starbird: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Chrystal Starbird: Cool. Well, it was amazing to meet you. Thank you for having me on here. And thanks, for it sounds like all you do here? I can’t. I’ll. I’ll look forward to like really getting to see you and stuff.

[Music]