Mentorship, Community, and Family: Dr. Christopher Barnes & Dr. Naima Sharaf

In this episode, I got to sit down and interview Dr. Christopher Barnes and Dr. Naima Sharaf who are currently postdoctoral researchers at CalTech. They are both structural biologists that just accepted positions at Stanford University. They also have two kids! Community, support, and yes, luck, were a huge part of their success. They believe in the power of mentorship, and I ’d probably give my left arm if I was ever given the chance to work with them. Enjoy!

Transcription

Transcribed by Lara Minassians (she/her)

JP: It’s up to you who wants to go first

Naima: Christopher Barnes wants to go first

Christopher: All right, so my name is Dr. Christopher Barnes. I am a postdoc. Actually, Hannah Gray fellow at Caltech, where I study HIV and most recently SARS COVID-2 to understanding how antibodies respond to these viral infections. And the way I study this is through structural biology. And so, basically, I’mlooking at You know how these antibodies that are listed upon these infections, interact with the viral proteins and cause infections and how they might be able to neutralize those viruses and prevent you from spreading it and dying from these types of illnesses. So yeah, so generally speaking, I’m a structural biologist by training. I did my undergraduate at the University of North Carolina, followed, by my doctorate, at the University of Pittsburgh, you know, where I again worked in structural biology and biochemistry. Fun fact. What’s my fun fact.

JP: It gets everyone.

Christopher: Okay.I guess the fun fact that most people know about me is that, you know, as undergraduate North Carolina have played football house on the varsity football team play wide receiver, you know, for the four years as undergraduate while also doing you know research, so yeah, yeah, yeah.

JP: Very impressive. Dr. Sharaf, wanna go ahead?

Naima: So I am now am a postdoc in Doug Weiss’ Lab I work on bacterial ABC Transporters which are membrane proteins involved in nutrient acquisition for the gram negative bacteria and my particular focus is neisseria meningitidis I’m also a structural biologist by training. So here I leverage tools, such as X-ray, crystallography, and single-particle cryo-EM are to understand how these things look and how they function and how we can leverage them to design novel therapies. So, I’m also, like Christopher Barnes at UNC Chapel Hill. So, I did my undergrad there and then PhD, my doctor will work at University of Pittsburgh with Dr. Angela Gronenborn. And I’m fun fact about me is, I’ve lived in many places, I guess. So I was born in Ecuador, I’ve lived in Australia and several States.

JP: Very cool. Hey then just just, it’s funny because when I was putting this together, Dr. Barnes was like yeah you can interview my wife too and he gave like a little background and I was like, man, this is this is a power couple like this, this is so funny, but I think it’s really interesting how you two met at UNC. I totally thought this was like yall met at Caltech is postdocs. So we can we can talk about that.

JP: That’s awesome.

Christopher: I’ve known her for 13 years now.

JP: That’s awesome.

JP: Yeah, we’ll talk about the Taylor Swift lovestory in a little bit, don’t worry. But I guess my first question is, what were your upbringing is like right? Like why are you the way that you are? Dr. Barnes. I know that dr. Michael Johnson. After you have a said, you were an athlete like you said, and I can definitely relate to all those struggles. You also said, in your talk your undergrad GPA was rather low and Dr. Sharaf, I realized that you were very well traveled, you probably have a lot of stories to share on your own, but can y’all talk about that. Maybe take a take a trip down memory lane?

Christopher: Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, my background, you know, I grew up outside of Charlotte with both my parents and I have an older brother and older sister. So I’m the youngest of my siblings and, you know, education was always important in our family. So my dad was an athlete as well. He played basketball in college and and Semi-Pro and then, you know, so we had these at these athletic gifts and to all of us, you know, play sports throughout. But you know, why that was important to our upbringing. Education was the most adamant thing in our household and my mom fought for us. You know, in schools every single day, to make sure we were getting the same education in education we deserved, you know, having parents that grew up in segregated South, you know, that was really important to them to make sure they are our education was valued and so I mean that that instill the principles and Me growing up to really focus on education. And so, you know, I love science as a kid, I loved math as a kid. You know, I had you know, many instruments of telescopes and microscopes and they’re growing up to explore the world around me and I became involved in, you know, the science clubs and middle school and high school doing Science Olympiad things like that.

Christopher: So yeah so I mean I think it was always there for me the Curiosity was always there and so you know as I got older and you know begin to develop as an athlete then you know that side of my life also kicked off, but I always remembered that, you know academics was going to be the key and I knew going into, you know, into football at UNC, you know, they tell you that you know, this is your time here will be longer than any time you will ever spend as a professional on the average rate and that the average football player maybe make the pros, you lasting three years. So what do you do after that? Right, so so I always had that in mind. So I first, I want to become a doctor, not really knowing what a PhD was. And I think that’s something that a lot of people don’t understand is like, you know, when we hear the word doctor. You usually recognize it as MD, right? A medical doctor and not so much as a researcher. And so I went to college with the same aspirations of becoming an MD, not knowing, you know, there’s another side of doctor that allows you to do the research that addresses the challenges. And, you know, our first, my first anyway, advisor really instill that into me. He’s like, you know, why my routine. When you can, you can, you can cure it right. Why, why just follow procedure. When you can actually be the one of the Drugs that the doctors prescribe or, you know, designed and vaccine that’s going to be delivered by those doctors. Right. So so that you know, really, you know, you know really launched my career in towards science is that you know initial undergraduate training at UNC with Gary [unintelligble]. Like he really you know changed my mind on what it meant to be a scientist and how to get there. So yes I mean wasn’t because of him, I wouldn’t be here so yeah I mean he’s really the one that sent me on this path.

JP: Awesome, Dr. Sharath you want to figure? Yeah, so mine is actually quite different.

Naima: So for me, I grew up in a family with three other siblings. Two older sisters, and a younger brother and my parents moved here. So, my parent, my dad is from Afghanistan, and my mom is from Ecuador. They like met in Russia. So we moved in a bunch of places, and we were following my mom’s career. She’s also a scientist more of the computational side, but when we moved to the United States, we had no concept. Of what it means to take the SAT and how that relates to your future. No idea that yo u know that you had to apply, For me I had no idea how to apply to colleges. I thought, I assumed my whole life that, you know, you go from middle school to high school and of course naturally then you go to college and just seems to make sense or no one. Instilled in me, the importance of extracurricular activities of grades. Of anything like that but I think education was always was emphasized. So you had to do well in school but my mom never check my grades. It was very independent. And so what I had to do is figure out what I needed. So I was like, did I need a a test? I need to write an essay. What is an essay? And you know, the reason I found out that I had to apply to college as someone asked me, did you apply to college? And I said, no, I would. I like I thought I was just going And they’re like no no you have to apply. So then I just started applying and so I think for my whole career there’s never been a row that someone has shown me. That there is a path that you should take. And it really has instilled in me and Independence of trying to figure out what I can and cannot do because it’s not always clear because you don’t even know that these jobs exist. And so I came into University of Massachusetts as a pre-med major it on the first things they did is scare you they’re like don’t you know if you choose to take this math, it’s really hard math. Like, this is only for pre-med majors and I was like, what are you going to be taking home work the whole time and I was like, okay well I don’t want that. So I took another math and it ended up being like the wrong math and so I think you know one of the challenges I had is this people constantly in stealing some sort of fear in you that like oh you know, this is not what you want, you know, maybe something easier might be better for you and then realizing, you know, know I can do more. You know, I can be more. And what about all these other careers I hadn’t even clue about, you know. So that’s how I also got into research, you know, I learned that you could, you know, do research and get some sort of stipend and that after school, you can become a technician and that also has, you know, kind of a financial component in. These are things that people don’t tell you. And for example, for a PhD in The Sciences, at least they give you a stipend and you can live off. And that there’s some, in contrast to something like a medical school where you have to pay your way. So for me it’s always been an adventure to figure out what is out there and how can I position myself to leverage these things and not let people scare me into thinking that I can’t do something and I think this all goes down to how my upbringing was, which was very hands-off, you know, it’s like either of you have to figure it out - you’re not gonna make it. And so I think I’m always looking for those opportunities. I may have missed and with that emphasis in education, it has allowed me to take advantage of some things. You know, I didn’t even know existed.

JP: Yeah, I mean, it, thanks so much for sharing. I’m sorry about those negative experiences. But look at y’all know, right?

Christopher: And to another aspect of that, is that need also not knowing about the path. I think, what’s really important, you know, you kind of hit on a hill in my talk was that, you know, there are multiple paths to their right? And so, No, you both of us were in the same Department, same degree name was the top of the class. I was the bottom of the class. I mean, let’s be real.

JP: Yeah, and so cute.

Christopher: Yeah, but it’s the same, hey, you know, we’re at the same place like we, I know name of went this one path which is, you know, yeah, 4.0 GPA, you know, apply to colleges and, you know, get in and everything like that. Whereas me, I was like, okay, well I had a 2.5 GPA, how do I overcome this? And And apply to graduate programs and apply to these these different grants and things like that. So so yeah, I think the key is that there is no one path and that, you know, you shouldn’t your dream shouldn’t be deterred just because it doesn’t fall path A, there’s multiple paths to get there and I mean, I think, you know, Naima was able to find out on our own but for me, you know, because of my grades, I had to go reach out to people say, hey, I still want to do this so how do I show up in my no bad grades, which the answer was, you know, do a master’s, do research technician position and show people that you can do the work show people that you can do be the scientist that, you know, you can be. And then with that, you’ll make it so

JP: Definitely.

Naima: I think a lot of the things I said, kind of was - I think, what was the positive thing that was in my life is the people willing to help me. So if I reached out for help, I always got a help. So any of my undergrad, professors might be terrific Mentor, Gary [Pilac?]. Like I had amazing people surrounding me when I was taking my PhD. You know, I ended up pregnant, it was the beginning of my degree. And so, having the overload there were challenges, there were always people there willing to help if I reached out.

JP: And, Yeah, hearing your story, they like you said, Dr. Barnes are not exactly the same. So I was wondering if you don’t mind me asking.How did y’all meet you know? Like like Naima. Like were you like, why am I hanging out with this dude. Dr. Barnes If you’re writing a soap opera is then is the classic Jock with the smart smartest girl in the school.

Naima: No. That’s not true, we were in the same lab. That’s what happened is like we were I was I was into NMR and I applied to this lab and he just happened to be there. And you just spend a lot of time with somebody. You get to know them and like them, I think.

Christopher: Yeah, so I started in undergraduate research in Gary’s lab a year before Naima joined lab. So I was already in the lab ingrained in the lab and when Naima joined. Yeah, we I mean on the graduates, we don’t have really any place to sit. So we were all hang out and either conference room or wherever during lunch. And so, yeah, we just got to know each other.

Naima: We were also the same major and saying we’re taking similar classes.

JP: Awesome. Yeah, I was kinda curious, I was like, huh, but I wonder how that happened. That truly is like a Disney movie, right? We talked about like community and support, but I can’t help thinking about the fact that you guys are. Y’all are postdocs at Caltech with kids, right? And I’m sure it’s hard navigating like, oh, I have to make sure that they’re set for school before I can, you know, go back to work and work in lab. So what has that been like, how’s doing University been for them? Have y’all been helping them also? Are they excited for the move?

Christopher: Somewhat.I think, you know, we’re from North Carolina, Charlotte had the mindset of them. But now, you know, they were going to Stanford. They’re they’re adjusting, they don’t know that place yet, ready? They’ll know it was like up there, but to your question, I mean, I think, you know, finding Dr. Gold whose name we talked about was really key for us, because Have our kids and grandkids graduates do not ever say she know our oldest who just turned 18 yesterday, right? You know was that the started both of our graduate careers and so how do you live in a city? You know, we were, you know, midway between her parent and my parents, you know, living in Pittsburgh and it’s like, you know, so we have no immediate family support around. So how do you navigate? You know, this was now a kid and you’re trying to do a degree and so yeah so I mean I think that community and having It’s having friends around to say, hey, well, we need to do something a lab, please. Come watch our son for a second or no parents. Ya know, we don’t have daycare for another eight months, can’t you come, you know, live with us. This is my parents did. I mean, our parents took turns thankfully, and we’re able to come and stay with us for a month selling in and help us because, yeah, I mean, navigating that was probably the most difficult aspect of definitely of graduate School during our degress but part of that is having good mentors.We were blessed to have really two really good mentors understood the challenges associated with Parenthood and and really helped us out and didn’t put more weight on us, then they know we can take. So, I mean, I think that is really key when you’re thinking about choosing people that you want to work for as a graduate student, as a postdoc. Now, moving into our postdocs. Same way, we have two great mentors who understand the challenges of being parents, the challenges of being, you know, scientists in this type of work force. So yeah. It’s that’s really, you know, important and

Naima: I think, you know, to Christopher’s point you know one of the first challenges is daycare, you know. And then the first thing, a person that I told was the daycare center when I was pregnant because I needed to enroll at six weeks because always, you don’t get a spot and so we didn’t even get a spot till 18 months later and so we had to really pay for kind of a More expensive day care, because we were just, we’re not aware the waitlist, waitlists are years. And so, you know, finding out that you need to put yourself on a waitlist like that’s huge. No one tells you that and so that you don’t just take them. Like what So then the that was challenging and then you know, okay, then there’s is a woman, you’re like, okay, if I choose to breastfeed, where am I going to breastfeed you know, and, you know, Pittsburgh had their breast Reading room in between a bridge, which was a great accepting winter when there was no insulation. So you just freezing in there. And so I talked to my mentor and she gave me her office. And so I think having that support where someone can understand me, like, can’t pump in the middle of a cold, Bridge winter, and she, and people around there would also give me their office and things, you know, I had support where I needed it. And I think also between us, we also coordinate really well. I think what we talk about is our needs, it’s like, okay, well I need to go in this day. Can you move your stuff around or do you need this? Let me move my stuff around. And so I think the ability to coordinate with each other has been really helpful and continues to this day. You know, giving each other space to work in time or at home, if need be.

Christopher: Yeah. And then on top of that to the financial support aspect of it, that was difficult me, right? Because even though you get the stipend and you don’t have to pay for your schooling, As graduate students, you know, the money is that high and so again, you know, we were lucky to have people around us to have the university Day Care System. Say, hey well, we understand that yellow, poor graduate students and y’all cannot probably afford you know two children in daycare, right? So working out ways to help supplement you know, the cost of daycare for us and then even moving to our post doc, you know moving to certain areas like we realized we couldn’t do a post doc can you know say in the Bay Area because of the Price of living, as well as the price of daycare. And so, I mean, that was actually a component, you know, that that I think people are beginning to realize and starting to address is like, you know, how do you raise a family when daycare costs, you know, one person’s paycheck and so as part of the fellowship that I have actually, you know, being one of the first to have kids to win this award. I really negotiated for them to say, hey well we have this expense funding, like can we use expense funding for daycare costs. Because that’s going to help benefit my Sciences. You know I can have daycare cover for my child and not have to worry about that. And so, I mean, I think people, you know, that was something that was Major for us as well to have that extra financial support from from my fellowship. And this is something that, you know, I’ve negotiated helps push further down, no for the other graduate student fellows education by to say that they can use their reward money towards their daycare because that’s that’s huge. That’s going to help you as a scientist and you as an individual knowing that I had the financial means to that, your kid will be taken care of

Naima: And all the universities that we went to had these kind of policies. And I think especially the University of Pittsburgh, you know, if we didn’t have that program to help with some of the day care expenses, it would just not happen, financially feasible.

JP: Yeah, that’s awesome. Just the fact that you have that familial support in your parents and institutional support as well. I’m a person that really relies on my peers if you, did your peers have any Play this at all.

Christopher: Yeah, I mean, there was a postdoc in Naima’s lab to actually was in the same lab has Us in Gary’s lab at UNC. So, Lisa, is a name. She, you know, she was our go to whenever we did need some help right away because we knew her for many years from our time At UNC, it’s like so she was the closest to family. We had in Pittsburgh while we were there. So, yeah, I mean, she definitely helped. Ya know, you know, doing our second no child’s birth, know she was there. To take care of the look after our first one. Say hey, guys,

Naima: We didn’t have family there.

Christopher: We didn’t have family there. I was like,

Naima: how do you had the anticipate birth?

Christopher: But yeah, exactly. When your water is gonna break, who’s going to be on call. All right, so I guess though she was like, right there for us to say, hey well y’all go to the hospital, I got Julius, right? So I mean I think those are some of the things that, you know.

Naima: Yeah we definitely relies upon on a day-to-day basis to really help us and even here we had a friend Beth who had kids and then you just talked to them and they give you these and ideas of what’s available, you know, what programs do you qualify for what is good for People with regards to activities with the kids. So having that Community to inform you of what is available? I think is really important. Yeah.

JP: So many questions is popped up in my head and I’m just like, how in the world did they do this? First off? First off y’all met at UNC but you went to Pitt together and Caltech together. So I’m curious to see how that that went. But also, we can also talk about like, have you ever felt isolated as students of color in stem. And do you have any advice for those that feel like I don’t belong in them, but can we get the first question out of the way? Because I’m just like, how did how did that happen? Like two plus two equals five like

Naima: It’s too cold for me. [laughter] So here we are

JP: I think that’s a great answer.

Christopher: Yeah I mean, that’s the truth. But just a matter of Naima was a step ahead, so I had to do a master’s to sure up my lower GPA to get me on the path to be able to apply graduate school. So you know, during my master’s Naima started at Pitt for her graduate training and in between that time we got pregnant our first kid. So it was ok, so if we wanted to go to other places. I am a Southerner at heart, I did not want to go up North, too cold for me. After that then [inaduible]I came to Pitt for my graduate program and then yeah, then moving forward, I mean, now we have two kids after graduate school and so it was a, it was, you know, finding two postdocs at the same University, you know, that, that was a challenge. And that’s something that we had to navigate, especially when, you know, one a situation may be better for one and not the other, right? So trying to find a place where both situations were going to be good and allow us to be both successful. That was somewhat of a challenge. But yeah, I mean, at the end the day, Caltech end up being that place that we both were able to grow a scientist.So that’s that really worked out for us and again I mean some of this is just opportunity and look I mean he’s just like you. We can’t discount the fact that we are lucky to have the Opportunity to show up. But once those opportunities to present themselves, you know we really take took took charge and handled it. So yeah.

JP: And Caltech isn’t it isn’t exactly a bad place to be you know.

Christopher: Yeah, it’s been Great. Yeah being here at Caltech. Yeah a lot of stuff that we’ve been able to accomplish I don’t think we could have accomplished the other places we were considering

JP: So and the two other questions have y’all ever felt isolated in stem undergrad, postdocs now. And what would you Say to those that do.Do you think?

Naima: No, I am a bit of a mixed-race child, some half-and-half, Ecuadorian and so I’ve never really fit in anywhere. And so it was always kind of been just kind of the same feeling, it’s just okay. I am part of this community but I’m not really one of them yet and then you know I moved to LA and then I got the food, I got the music and I was like, this is great, this is what I’ve been missing. So I mean I think for me, you know, I’ve been able to kind of just fly under the radar, most of my life and being I guess what people have made me racially ambiguous but I think it feels nice to come to California and feel home and I think that’s something that I’ve never really experienced or sometimes, you know, you never really knew that you were missing something until you gain something. And I think one of the things that were as a bit challenging where I did feel a little bit, different is being a young mom, you know, I think in Academia you look at moms who are a little bit older and so, when I would drop my kid off of people with thought I was a babysitter. So, do you have these older moms and I’m young, but I took that as, you know, a way for me to learn and to get advice from people that had life experience. So I think you know it’s nice kind of feeling home, it’s interesting.

Christopher: Yeah. And for me yeah I’ve definitely feel that isolation, you know, throughout even starting high school, you know in middle school. You can so you know as as a kid right? I was These in the international Baccalaureate program, these AP classes which at my my school growing up in high school especially not filled with black kids say it was mostly all white kids. You know young kids There were taking these classes. So even at an early age I was already kind of isolated within the classroom setting where I would be the only one you know they look like me in those classes. Teachers of course, don’t look like you in those classes. And so again talking about my mom fighting, you know she fought to make sure that, you know, that I wasn’t getting the short end of the stick and, you know, and discipline and all this kind of stuff, just because my skin tone growing up in the South. So I mean I think you know from early age I was aware of this isolation and this no type of situation. I always was able to fall back on my friends and my teammates right there were more diverse and so that was really my community. And so, even in college, you know, I was again in classes where, you know, UNC is pretty diverse or they said, well as when we were there, you know, We had classes that, you know, have a mix of people, but as you got to start, getting to those upper level classes, you know, I began again to see that I was the only one in those classes that look like. Again, you don’t see teachers either, you know, see the professor’s, the like you, but I always fell back on my teammates and my roommate’s. So, So even though I feel isolated, I knew, I had a community outside of classroom. So it was like, okay, well, I’m going to class, but you damn go hang out with my boys and I’m good, but I think when I got to graduate school that’s when it really hit home. Like, you know, going to Pit into that community and is a City College are also colleges on the outskirts of Pittsburgh. So right in the city and with any City, you have a dynamic of, you know, inner city which is mostly with the black and Latino Community Live. And then the outskirts of the city where most of the white people live. And so we like you living the kind of the outskirts and so your neighbors are mostly white. You know you’re adding a classroom environment, you’re in a graduate program, you’re in med school, which is mostly White. I think I was the only Black male in that program. For three of the five years I was there and then someone came in like towards the end of my career. So it’s like they’re you know, the isolation was was really hard because not only was I know environment, in a city that, you know, was segregated. I was in a Workforce in a program again. Nothing bad about Pit. But right this is Midwestern this eastern, Pennsylvania, or western Pennsylvania. So the people in that program aren’t necessarily the greatest when it comes to racial issues. So you have that, you have the fact that you only black person, you don’t have any black professors for how you can go to during times of, you know, challenges. So like, you know, during our graduate program training, right? You know, some of these police involved shootings, you know, we’re really happening at that time. This was like, who do you turn to? It was really hard to turn to anyone. I mean, so my extra PhD Mentor as from Mexico, Guillermo. And so he had kind of, you know, we can talk, it looks at least a little bit about, you know, issues of discrimination that he felt as a, you know, Mexican-American growing up in training, people at Pittsburgh. But again, it was wasn’t the same, you know, was insane, right? So yeah, so I mean, I think that that was a struggle for me, especially being so far away from family. Now, no longer associated with the football program. And having no friends they were by. So yeah, so it was a struggle and it is a real struggle that you have to, you know, you have to navigate in these places and try to find Community within the city’s, you’re going to be living in as a graduate student. Just to say, Hey, you know, this is, you know, like name of found Community here is like, you know, how can I find a community is going to support me and help me feel like I’m not losing myself and my culture to a work environment? Is that really looks like me, right? So, Yes, I’m is a challenge and I think we all find different ways to navigate those challenges in the day when my close friends from UNC ended up moving to Pittsburgh. And so I had that friendship that had a, you know, someone that could turn to and we could go, no grab a drink just, you know, talk and just kind of event, which really helps me. But again you have to find that because yeah it is a real challenge to navigate these things.

JP: So as you know Dr. Barnes Dr. Sharaf I am about to apply to grad school. Right And I hope yo uknow these stories and being able to talk to yall has inspired me. That kind of feels weird for you to hear after hearing those stories. But for me, it’s like, man. Like, I just feel like I’m ready to kind of just enter the world of grad school and things like that. And I just, I’m excited to hear what other people have to say, as well, because after the first episode, I interviewed a couple under a couple undergraduates from McCalester College, and UC Davis, and I just kept getting messages. Like, I didn’t know people felt like this to, you know, So it’s awesome. Thank you so much for sharing your story, so I still have a couple more questions. I wasn’t that wasn’t a conclusion, that was not. But how do y’all feel hearing that? You know, hearing that people are inspired hearing that, you are changing people’s lives? That must feel good, right? Can y’all talk about that a little bit Maybe?

Naima: I think for me it’s you know, we’ve had so much help you know whether all the way from high School to a postdoc and it’s the idea of then bringing, you know, taking charge and also bringing people up with you. And I think it’s so because we’ve had so much help being able to kind of reach out to the younger generations and also show them a path or help them in any way that we can, I think is really fulfilling and I think it’s, I mean, like, I’m almost about to cry, but it’s like, you know, it’s fantastic. You know, it’s like, you know, that things that you have to To say our can be useful and can Empower younger Generations. I think is really nice, but I think it’s also something that kind of you feel, I feel like a moral obligation to do, you know, I think people are so bright and that you know, everybody should be given a chance and so being able to help in any way I can, as extremely important to me and I think we look for that in the environments that we put ourselves in.

Christpoher: Yeah. And no, I totally agree. I mean, hearing hearing that and, you know, hearing that we’re Inspiring people to maybe take that leap. And and take those risks to follow their dreams and I think that’s really important. It’s really important for me. So above all like, I like science, but I like the mentoring aspect of it more like engaging with the students. I like, you know, helping those the Next Generation behind me, you know, come up because as name was saying, like, we want to bring up as many people as possible because, you know, you know, I often struggled with the isolation and the feeling of Why am I here if I have to deal with all this and why do I have to deal with all this and just for what like, what am I doing this for? And so it’s like stories like these and I think name will really help me. See this is like, you know, someone has to kind of be the first to do this to help bring up the next. And so, I mean, I really, you know, that really hit home as I, you know, start you know, talking to people like I went to a conference earlier this year, before COVID hit, it was like, you know, I went to this conference, I was one of the speakers. It was Speaker immediately. I had people come up and say, hey, that was great. It’s finally nice to see someone like me on this stage giving a talk. Right. You know, of course the things would insert and other programs is like, you know, the same things like you know, so nice to hear someone story whose no closely related to mind. And, you know, those types of stories, actually, motivate me to be the best that I can be and pave the way. And because I know, you know, something as I was, you know, considering it as we were considering our two job offers, you know, to either go back, home to you. UNC or go up to Stanford, you know, one the components I had in the back of my mind like who where can I go that’s going to make the biggest impact to really bring in the most people and help the most people. Right. And I debated this for a long period of time and it wasn’t till, you know, I talked to him, a number of different people was like, you know, your presence on that campus. If you go to Stanford is really going to make a huge impact because, you know, how can you tell these undergraduates in these graduate students that they can aspire to be a professor? At the top institution, but yet a top institution like Stanford. There are no professors will like them, right? So, how can you tell someone and they’re not be that representation like, how’s that? That’s a conflicting message, right? So, by just being there, you know, we’re going to make an impact and I mean, I think that’s something that I value more than the research, to be honest. I mean, I really want to make. I got seven years of know. If I get tenure, I got seven years, I’ll be on that campus. You know, as a researcher and as a teacher the, you know, I’m gonna try to make a bigger impact in those seven years as I can, of course, if you get tenure, then I’ve set up to continue to make that impact long after. So yeah. I mean, I think that’s, that’s my motivation as I Look to next step in my career.

JP: Definitely and I feel like I can relate to that as well. Definitely not the same thing, but I coach nine-year-old and 12 year old baseball team and I try to go and do community outreach a different elementary schools and things like that. So, I am just now realizing man, this isn’t going to stop once they graduate, you know, this is this can keep going on and graduate school and things like that, but I am curious. How do y’all think we can kind of diversify stem and Implement full inclusion initiatives? More formally, right? mentor-mentee programs? Like [unintelligible] what else can we do? Because at Occidental a couple of students and I are currently trying to change the bio curriculum as far as implementing social and racial Injustice issues, right? The class that I’m in, it’s called special topics in biology, inspired this podcast. So can you all think of any ideas or more formal initiatives, now that you’re at this point in your careers and experienced so much

Naima: I mean I think one of the things if you are doing kind of research in the lab is that you need to have research experience. I think people are always hesitant to give people a chance if they don’t have previous experience and so formal programs puts kids into Labs even for Summers is huge because then not only do you have an experience of whether you like that environment, do not. But then you have a recommendation letter from Professor foremost, a top-tier institution. So if research isn’t a thing for you and you still have that recommendation. And so having a formal opportunities for diverse group of people to be in lab settings, even if it’s just for the summer is huge.

Naima: Yeah and I think that’s Really, really key. And I think research has shown that, you know, minorities come in, you know, with the same aspirations to be research scientist as their white peers, but yet the retention rate for minorities is much, much lower. And so the question has always been, how do you maintain that high retention rate, you know? So, one is representation on campus, you know, having PIs, having graduate students, having a diverse, you know, upper [unintellgible] the University know that looks more diverse is really important, you now here that Caltech. was a sticking point here, at students here is like, you know, there’s only 11 black graduate students in this entire campus, so, which makes up less than 1% of The Graduate population, right? So, who do they turn to when know things like, you know, George Floy happen, for, you know happened, like, who these people turn to? So, that representation at the top is really key and so, I think a lot of universities are now looking to do these cluster hires to really try to diversify their Workforce and so on. I mean, I think that’s a push by the University Administration to make change, but to name this point, you know, giving opportunities the second part of it. And I think that’s really, really important because the way all this works, I mean as much as we hate to admit it, but there is no, there’s a, there’s an in club right? There is a, there’s a thing you have to navigate? You have to navigate it, right? You have to navigate this. Now can think of the work, well, just it’s just easier, right?

Naima: Like, if Come from a top-tier institution, you have that recommendation letter that is going to be favored over someone.

Christopher: Yes

Naima: smaller lab you know, with a professor that you don’t know. And so giving students those recommendations in those opportunities will help them in the future. And I think that’s kind of what they have to navigate, is that those labs and those lab names matter sometimes in.

Christopher: Yeah, and so but yeah and so a point that, you know, that I’ve been looking at and Then I think a lot of people that I’ve talked to moving to Stanford is how can we bring in people like yourself from smaller colleges than that might not be RO1 institute’s to give them those research opportunities. And so you know, this is something that had proposed know if we were going to UNC is to reach out to the surrounding HBCUs in that area, right to say those qualifying Engineers as qualified, scientists and universities that made me that need to opportunity. Come to UNC, come to Duke, come to NC State and show, and get those recommendations. That’s going to allow them to go into graduate programs. Right? At the same time is going to help you as a mentor if you have a diverse lab space and you begin to learn about, you know, and see that these individuals can do the work because you might have your own implicit bias about, you know, about certain individuals. But if you actually have them in your lap and you see what’s happening, then that that’s really powerful. I think, you know, moving up to Stanford, you know, this is something they have in place where they’re going to try to reach out to more local community and state schools in the area and set it up with a program along with UC Berkeley UCSF and Stanford to know in to bring in summer students from these from these universities, that might not have the usual opportunity to come to those tdo those types of research program. So I mean, I think that opportunity is something that we’re going to push for and we’re going to work for and not even just undergraduates but also even High school student starts in high school

Naima: Which like Who knew? Who knew that you could just go to a lab? No one tells you that.

Christopher: Yeah. So I was like, you know, why not bring in, you know, one or two high school students from disenfranchised, you know, no schools and say, Hey, you know, this is research. This is what you can do. Tell your friends about it. You know, no start pilot programs with like these private schools do around here and say, Hey, you know, let’s have a class where we’re going to send this class into a research environment that allows them to begin to learn how to do Stem and they get to go to and learn stem and early age. I mean that this is where other people are doing. So why not extend that offer to other places where the opportunity does not exist? So so these are all things that are really important just to drive home.

JP: I’m definitely gonna send this to my biology Department. They’re going to be like, JP your back. What do you want? And I would be like, listen this is it. Yeah, thank you for that. What do you use to kind of motivate yourself on days where you find it, hard to get things done, right? Mental health wise, you know, you’re having a bad day just just curious because I feel like a lot of students nowadays are hitting a wall especially now during the pandemic and people are feeling burnout. So what are little tips and tricks that y’all can share and offer?

Naima: I think one of the things that I like to do at least is because, you know, I know having a family is challenging but I think you can also pull a lot of Happiness from that. You know, when I’m having a tough day in lab, you know, at least my kids learn how to walk and he, you know, is talking calling me Mama and so and then sometimes the kids are tough and so, hey, I read a great gel. I got a great experiment and I think finding different places to pull your happiness from I think has been important for me. Really having, you know, I think sometimes it’s being motherhood is seen as a challenge and hard, but it could also be so beneficial because it shows you what’s important, and You know, it’s like okay this experiment didn’t work second of my life, you know, like I like I’m still living I need to live and feed these children. So I think it gives you perspective in and allows you to work efficiently. And you know sometimes when that’s motherhood thing is just tough You can pull from lab, you know? It’s like wrote some great sentences, great Poster like you know, small things you can pull happiness from.

Christopher: Yeah, I second that. Finding those small. Things to keep life in perspective is really important. You know, for me personally, I have attitude of tried to. Well, I wouldn’t say care. But you know, try not to let things overwhelm you too much, right? You, you have to have that perspective, right? You know, small victory. Hey, I woke up and I got out of bed today, Victory, right? That’s, that’s, you know, it’s kind of cliché but it’s true. Like, you have to focus on those positives because if you just look at The negatives negatives overwhelm you. And that’s how you get these walls, right? You go on Twitter today, you know, every other word is, oh my gosh, how awful? All this blah blah iis like if you stay there for our that’s is consuming you with negativity. And so sometimes you have to put social media where you have to put that away. You have to go out, clear your head, take a walk exercise for me, you know, exercising is really key to my mental health and saying hey I need to go work off some stress. You know, I’ve always had with either football but now it’s like I know that right was weightlifting is running just to walk out that stress. And and then again, just focus on those positives. And again the kids are great. That puts things in perspective, they don’t they don’t care about what you’re doing. That’s great. So it’s like, you know because at the end of the day, you know, science is a job. Hopefully it’s a job you will love, but there’s a job in with any job there’s going to be you know, ask of you to do things, right? And so you’re going to have you just published this paper, great. On to the next one like, you know, you’re going to find yourself sometimes environment, where you’re constantly pushing yourself, pushing, pushing pushing, and never enjoying those victories. And you can’t do that, right? You have to stick. Say, hey, I just got this award. Hey, I just did a bomb job on this poster on this exam, like, I’m gonna celebrate this. I’m gonna take this weekend and say, I’m gonna enjoy this Victory, right? And so you really have to just enjoy those victories. And remember that even small victories are victories because So yeah, if you just focus on those negatives. It’s not good for you.

JP: Definitely. Thank you. All right. Y’all ready for some out of pocke JP questions?

Christopher/Naima: Yeah.

JP: All right, I’ll start off with an easier one. What is the craziest thing you’ve done in the Name of Love? [All Laughing]

Naima: I dont know. [unintellgible] … Name of Love?

Christopher: I’m trying to think, that’s a tough one. [Laughter]

JP: I was thinking as I was thinking of these questions now. They’re not going to answer these right away, they’re going to have to think. [cross talk]

JP: If you want your kids to come on and say hi they can too

Christopher: I, we, I guess to attract Naima.

Naima: What are we, are we like Animal Kingdom? Attract?

Christopher: I used to stay in lab just to hang out with her. [laughter]

Naima: That’s true [laughter]

Christopher: Which is kind of silly because I didnt like being in the lab but I liked her so I was like Im gonna show up to lab and hang out. [crosstalk] Just so I can see her.

Naima: I used to work a lot. It was my favorite place to be. It was my happy place and then suddenly he’s there.

Christopher: So when I was playing football actually, you know, in between class and practice like I would go to lab so I could see Naima, and then like, you know, even doing training camp like, you know, I would, you know, in between our like our two-a-days I would jump hop over to lab and Naima will be there, because it was close by I would go and ice my knees and stuff while sitting on the couch and lab and then we can talk and hang out. So I guess The craziest thing I’ve–

JP: That’s awesome. Naim no stories. nothing?

Naima: I really can’t think of anything.

JP: That’s fine, Dr. Barnes can take that question. Just got you points, Dr. Barnes and got yourself points.

JP: All right. Here’s a little more broader question. What are your proudest accomplishments or happiest memories? A couple just wind, just some that come off the top of your head.

Naima: I mean, I think for me, you know, I think I like, I like my degrees. I did something. I think the children, you know, the birth of our children was like because as a biophysicist like my whole goal is to purify one protein, right? And here I made thousands of human proteins on one baby and so I collect what I can do, nine months, and I’m done. this is terrific coming human proteins I made. I think that was truly amazing. I think, you know, for me, the offers to that, I was going to have my lab, that was my dreams. Like, I always wanted the lab, just need a lab, like, one, a lab. And to say that, you know, I was going to do that. And I think was absolutely amazing. And I think something that’s ongoing to I think with Christopher is that, you know, we try to build a happy family and I think it’s tough like, it’s hard work and I think one of the proudest things that I think we do is, you know, try really hard to build that happy home.

Christopher: yeah, I think that’s that’s true. Like, you know, I think the proudest moment is of course, become a dad and you know, and so like our first time, actually delivered our first time it was like, you know, that was a very happy moment. Something that I’ll never forget and cherish, you know, and watching them grow up is it was really as a parent that makes you proud knowing that, you know, you’re raising good humans and they are, you know, achieving becoming their own people and doing things that kids do I think.I think scientifically I think our recent offers you mean that’s, you know, outside of our degrees, which were, you know, to be able to say you were, we had two kids who are able to overcome and get, our didn’t give up, you know, which Narrows thought, but right, but a lot of people do. And so I’m making, that’s a victory to chat to say that, you know, I did persevere. We did persevere regard degree. In spite of the challenges associated with trying to raise kids summer, I think that’s true, but yeah, but definitely having these offers to be able to start our lab. That’s, that’s a huge Victory. That’s something that we don’t know. We know is, you know, how hard it is to get to that point. We’ve had friends that go through a lot, a lot, much more difficult time to get there. So, yeah. So that’s something I’m very happy our parents, of course, all of us are very proud but you have to be to be some of the first, you know, to achieve such accomplishments really great.

JP: Now, I’m gonna start crying now. I’m getting emotional. Yeah I mean look at y’all need like a baseball coach for your kids. Let me know. Need a graduate student postdoc. Let me know. I’m already just like shaken talking to y’all but now it’s more like now, it’s like now you’re on a pedestal. I’m sorry, these are, this is awesome. So I asked asked this question in my last episode, but let’s say you wake up one morning. And you go All right this is the day that the data I gather will lead to a publication in like cell or nature. You hop in your car to leave and your lab is five minutes away. What song are you all playing?

Christopher: Depends on the day. I guess my go-to is is a song by J dilla. You know, it’s a mix of it off of what his albums, The Shining album. We’ll call “Won’t do” That’s one of my favorite songs mean, the kids play all the time when we go golfing. So like that’s that’s one of my happy songs that I know what I want to feel pumped, I’ll play that or I’ll play BMX. One of those funny every once in a while, some BMX jumps in there

JP: [singing] We’re the hood, we’re The Hood, we’re the hood

Christopher: This is what I play

Naima: I have a very personal relationship with music for me. I like to put my memories with the current music, so I attach memories to what’s current and so I kind of remember my life chronologically based on music. So if I was going to do that I would listen to a new music. So a new song that’s on the radio but what I would do is I would blast the like a reggaeton or something, you know. [laughing] Gonna stick that memory in there. You know, just really get the party started and then, you know, park a car and go get the reader and stick

JP: your little shimmy in the cars.

Naima: Yeah. And when that song plays back again. You know. It’s like you were pumped.

JP: Exactly. Exactly. All right, bouncing off that question, let’s say was a long day at lab. Maybe your controls aren’t working yet to call it quits. You decide to go out with your friends. And y’all want to do a karaoke night? What song are you all singing?

Naima: Don’t know if we’ve ever done karaoke. [laughing] So we had kids, in our twenties so we didnt go to karaoke

JP: Very fair, very fair.

Naima: But I always enjoyed blasting some, The Killers, I love singing so that sucks. Or yeah, some Lady Gaga.

JP: Like A Star is Born stuff like, Shallow or

Naima: No, no.

JP: No, not that one?

Naima: Laughing

JP: What are we talking, Just Dance, Poker Face?

Naima: No you gotta counter the bad mood. You gota pump it up.

JP: Dr. Barnes what are you going with?

Christopher: I dont know.

Naima: I’ve never seen you do karaoke.

JP: No, you never you’ve never liked wanted to play a song for the sake of singing. For me and my friends were like yo play play a Rihanna song right now play Umbrella by Rihanna, we’ll sing along right now.

Naima: Yes.

Christopher: Off the record.

Naima: No off the record.

Christopher: Off the record.

Christopher: I have some karaoke wants.

Naima: The 80’s?

Christopher: No, because it was R Kelly. That’s off the record. But um no, I think you know anything that gets you know gets me going, I listen to a lot of rap. If I’m out and I need to hear a song to get me going and dance, it’s Juvenile.

Naima: You’re telling our age.

Chirsopther: [unintelligible]. Thats probably one song I know every lyric of.

JP: Have y’all hit that Disney stage yet? As a family where you’re watching, like Disney movies with your kids yet, or how old are they?

Naima: They did Paw Patrol for a long time and that was excruciating. Have you seen Paw Patrol?

JP: I have seen paw patrol.

Naima: They’re a bunch of puppies with jobs.

Christopher: Yeah, we have Disney plus. I think they are more in tune to superheroes. So Avengers, we’ve seen all the Avengers. So that’s, I mean at least we can enjoy it as well. Lucily, we havent had to do too much like Disney Disney.

Naima: Yeah, but one of the weird things though, is, when your kids start liking shows that you watched as a kid, like they started watching Pokemon. And that was weird.

JP: Oh I bet.

Naima: And Dragonball Z

JP: laughing

Naima: We’re enjoying this together.

JP: Yeah, that’s awesome.

Naima: When your child, something that you’ve created like things that you liked as a child. That’s, that’s interesting.

JP: Yeah, I can’t relate. But yeah, that’s all the questions I had for you. I really just appreciate. And I’m so grateful to have this conversation. I feel like, these discussions are needed in stem and Science and I’m just also really happy that I met the two of you. So I’m not in person, obviously but virtually, you know, if it’s nice, it’s honestly nice. It’s reinvigorating hearing that people that are just a little bit older than me and are pursuing things I want to pursue our people to, you know, like I hear my mentor talk about, you know, these wild stories and graduate school that he experienced. And I’m like, I don’t want to experience that. So I am really, really hopeful for graduate school and I can’t thank you two enough for being a part of this and being a part of this Project and honestly, like being a part of my life Now, right? Because you talk about superheroes role models and I don’t want to be cheesy. I’m a Cheesy person. I don’t mean to be cheesy, but no, I think that I found to be role models in you and kind of like superheroes right?

Naima: So, thank you so much and you can do anything you want. Yeah. You really can. So you have so many options.

Christopher: Are you applying this year? This Fall

JP: Yeah. I’m looking at Oregon, Washington, Utah, Colorado, Boulder, schools like that. My mentor said this kind of look for schools that have supportive environment specially since Occidental is, very supportive, but yeah, I don’t know up in the air and yeah, yeah,

Naima: It’s fun, enjoy!

JP: Sounds like it.

Christopher: But go find supportive environments. That’s why I’m finding out too is that, you know, your support environment is not just at where you’re at. I mean, you just in This goes like this, I think now the pandemic good thing that’s come as pandemic is zoom and these FaceTime type meetings with like now you know, you can call and say, hey buddies, I’m having a tough day this jump on and just, you know, talk it out, same with us. I mean if you know, you get to graduate school and you say, hey, I ran into this issue, you know, how do you think I should navigate it or something? I mean, you have a support system now where you can reach out and talk, so don’t just feel like you’re isolated one place, like I did and this is, you know, a large country and you can you can find support everywhere and

Naima: I mean, that goes to your listeners to, you know, like they can also reach out and they can reach out to a lot of people they’re really willing to help.

JP: Well, thanks so much. I hope you two have a wonderful rest of your day again. Congratulations on Stanford. I think I was awesome when I saw it on Twitter, I was like, no, freaking way. This is so cool. Like I didn’t even know y’all at the time and I was like good for them. Like I feel. I feel that, I feel it for them.

Christopher: Thank you.

JP: Yeah, of course, yeah.

Christopher: Yeah. We’re excited. Next Summer we’ll get started.

Naima: Yeah, it’s nice meeting you.

Christopher: Yeah. En joy.

JP: And hopefully me, I’ll meet you one day. Both of you one day. I’ll just road trip up to Stanford.

Naima: Yeah, definitely. We’ll grab a coffee.

JP: Yeah definitely.