Objectivity vs. Subjectivity in Science: Dr. Sabah Ul-Hasan

On this episode, I got the chance to sit down and chat about social justice in science with Dr. Sabah Ul-Hasan, a bioinformatician and postdoc at The Scripps Research Institute in San Diego under Dr. Andrew Su. They are currently working on the NIH-funded Wikidata biocuration project. Enjoy!

Transcription

Transcribed by Doris Cruz Alonso (she/her)

S: So I’m Sabah UI-Hassan. I am a postdoctoral scholar and lecturer doing bioinformatics at Scripps Research under Dr. Andrew Sue and Don Eastman, under the Wikidata:WikiProject Gene Wiki. A fun fact about me is that I used to not like peas, but now I do. I also go by they/them pronouns.

J: Awesome, thank you so much. Yeah, I’m excited to hear more about your science. So what do you do exactly at your institution right now?

S: What do I do? Uh, so Wikidata is basically the Excel spreadsheet version of Wikipedia, which you can think of is like the Word document, and so wikidata is the structured data version of wikipedia, and so think like NCBI, but like everything, anybody can make a user account and you can look at anything from like dinosaurs to teen disease relationships, which is what I am mainly involved with; the gene rookie project and my roles mainly bio curation, which what I do. I retrieve data from very specialized biomedical databases like Clint Barklage AD and I integrate and automate that into wikidata with bots and Python, and so I do that and then right now my project is basically trying to reproduce and automate an analysis that basically walks through wikidata and retrieves a bunch of biomedical information as nodes and edge categories, puts it together as knowledge graph data, and then walks through that within an algorithm to then output potential candidates for drug repurposing. So basically, drugs that have already been FDA approved, and rank them for different types of uses than what they’re currently used for, so usually these are drugs that are outdated for some reason, or expired or not in use anymore, but maybe they’re useful for something else, so that’s what my project is.

J: Gotcha, that’s awesome. Yeah, outside of your science, would you mind painting a picture of who you are? How were you raised and what your upbringings were like?

S: Yeah, sure, I grew up in Salt Lake City, UT. I have a younger sibling, my family now lives in the Bay Area for the last several years. I’m in San Diego, so it’s really nice to be able to see them a lot more often, I think than before. But yeah, I grew up kind of in a, uh, I guess undesirable area of town that’s now being gentrified called like Glendale Rose Park area. So it was mostly a Hispanic migrant neighborhood. It was like all the other side of the highway. It was really close to the Great Salt Lake. So kind of like a smelly area because of the lake which is now really interesting because now people are trying to rescue and save the Great Salt Lake. Whereas like in the time I was growing up there was always seen as this like gross place. So it’s really interesting, uh, you know. For lack of being PC, once something turns onto white people’s radar, then it becomes important. So yes. So now that the neighborhood is being gentrified, now it’s like “nice” and so the area and stuff around it is also being valued a lot more, which is interesting. So that, I think in my journey of becoming a scientist, even though I grew up next to this lake, I didn’t really realize the value of it. Until getting involved in this high school research program that my friend and I, I did not, I was kind of antisocial like I just didn’t. I was alone a lot and didn’t really like friends generally, so I just had a few and even then I had these pet chickens and I would ditch them to hang out with my pet chickens. I was just very comfortable being alone, which is concerning maybe but uh yeah, so I had one friend. One of my three friends. Basically her brother was a grad student at the university, and she told me to apply for this program. I was a junior in high school, so by that time we had moved from that urban area and neighborhood to the suburbs, which was very different and we actually moved because of crime. So we moved to that area and this friend of mine told me about this program that was for high school students that you could do research with the university and I was very curious. We didn’t really have that many pets. Well, we had like a cat. I guess that was later and so I would keep insects, and I was very like find insects. I’d keep them for a week so I really liked biology. I really like nature but I didn’t see myself as like a scientist. I really loved, you know, science documentaries like I watched a lot of Jeff Corwin and Steve Irwin. And so I thought. But I just didn’t see myself like smart in that way. Anyways, my friend in high school she was like you should apply for this program with the university because my brother told me about it and he’s basically forced me to apply and I don’t want to be in Peru by myself and I was just like, well, I don’t think she’s pretty smart and I was like I don’t think I’m that smart. But like I’ll apply, I like I did AP classes and stuff, but I was always kind of in the back corner. You know it’s pretty average and that way like I was like the average or below average, in the AP class, just trying to get my extracurriculars for a scholarship, you know. So yeah. So I could get out of Salt Lake, uh, but yeah, so I applied for this program and I got in and I was really surprised. So I was going to work at Nielsen’s Frozen Custard, ‘cause I loved frozen custard.

J: And who doesn’t?

S: I know, so good, actually hard to find. But yeah, it’s really popular in Utah and so, love frozen custard. And then the program paid. It was a paid program, so they gave you a stipend for the summer and it was the same amount. I did the math and it was like saying about as I would have gotten paid to work at this frozen custard place this summer. So I was like 17, I had this summer job with the university, I was like this is great, like this awesome. So I did that and that’s basically how I’m here. I’m still in touch with my mentor at the time. Was a grad student who’s now a science staff at Yale. The person that led the program, she’s retired now, but she’s kind of like my science mom. And then after that I switched labs and the person I work with after that, he is now also retired. He was like my science dad, and I had like a really good, I mean it was, It was tough and they’re were some hard moments, but overall a really good experience as an undergrad. And actually the head of the lab. Also Filipino Baldomero Olivera and that I didn’t realize that was unusual.

J: Yeah

S: So oh, you know him?

J: I worked on cone snails for undergrad.

S: Really?

J: That was our research.

S: Yeah, there you go, good for you.

J: I worked with Doctor Schultz. I went to Occidental College.

S:Yeah great yeah yeah yeah cool yeah like I love his work I’ve like sent him some emails yeah so I did. I worked in all her labs undergrad. Yeah I worked in a few other labs too but mainly that one. But yeah that was my first experience really with research, I didn’t realize it was unusual too, you know, our lab was like very international. It was like a lot of Filipinos as well which I didn’t know was unusual. Then I went for my masters and I was like the only non male besides the PI, the only non white person besides, like one international Japanese grad student, and I was like, oh. And I was like a really big shock and I like ‘cause , you know I was like oh Salt Lake is like not diverse, like you’re from LA or like you went to LA. But I was like from Salt Lake and I just in my mind I was like oh Salt Lake is like not diverse ‘cause all my mom side is most of the Bay Area. So I was like that’s diverse and I was like oh so Salt Lake is like not, and then I went to other places like oh it’s like even worse. Right, I didn’t know, uh, but yeah, I think that that foundation is really important and there’s definitely been a few moments where I’ve wanted to leave or I almost dropped out. I took a masters instead of a pHD, the first time I did grad school, and I definitely don’t regret that decision. I think that was probably one of the best things I ever did. But yeah, I’ve hopped around and probably depending on who you talk to, some people were like, yeah, that person really should stay. And probably some people were like that person should not be in science anymore. But I’m still kicking so I don’t know.

J: Look at you now, right? Yeah, look at you now.

S: That’s kind of, that’s a little bit of my origin story.

J: Yeah, if you don’t mind me asking what institutions have you been through, gone to? S: Yeah I got to yeah I I so yeah I have so many thoughts on higher education. Someone recently asked me, they’re like, if you would do it again, would you? and I was like I would not go to school. I probably would just go to a vocational school and like get paid. I now have done like ten years of research and I probably get paid twice as much just doing vocational degree with that experience in a job. But I love asking questions so it’s very fulfilling in that way because I, I’m definitely that annoying kid. That’s like. Why is it like that? And I’m you know just like that person like a please stop asking questions. It’s good for me in that way, it’s fulfilling that way. I went to University of Utah and I could only afford to apply to two places really. So I applied. At that time there weren’t really like, or at least I didn’t know about like fee waivers and things like that. So I applied there and I applied to UC Berkeley and I got in there ‘cause I wanted to get out of Utah. But you know, at that time it was like the top public university, but I didn’t really care about that. I was just like that’s where weird/cool people go and I want to be cool, so I was not thinking about the top universities like I just want to be weird and cool and like. This is a good school, I was like no one it’s gonna give me a hard time if I get in. So I got in there and then, I remember me and two other friends also applied and one of our third friend could get in-state tuition because he had a parent that was in California. So he actually did go. I think he’s a lawyer now and then me and the other friends we couldn’t really afford to go ‘cause like 200K or something crazy and we had a full ride to the University of Utah. We’re just going to do this and that was another great decision. At first, I really was like oh man, this is like my dream school. My brother was sick at the time he was in and out of hospital but I really don’t regret that and my other friend who did that too doesn’t regret it, like my friend is now a successful architect so you know. My plug is, you know, choose finances over school, especially if you don’t know entirely what you want to do. Like if you know what you want to do in school, undergrad or grad do it. But if you’re still not entirely sure like. Grad school is great in the sense like it’s, uh, well, how I’ve looked at it, it’s consistent pay for four to five years. Not a lot of pay, but it’s consistent pay. You don’t pay a lot of taxes and like good insurance, yeah, where you go. So that’s, you know. Depending on the state of the economy, it’s a good decision and your own social economic background, it’s a good decision, job wise and that way ‘cause then you get paid! If we’re doing, you know, basically cheap labor when you get a degree at the end. So that’s kind of I’ve, I feel like I’ve always looked at school from a financial perspective just because I had to, and I think they really worked out for me. So then yeah, I went to the University of Utah. I got on the scholarship and then I went to grad school and University of New Hampshire. I did my masters in biochemistry. Then I was going to work after that. But then one friend told me about UC Merced. And I really was kind of done with academia and sciences in general, and I lived in Puerto Rico for a little bit. Like worked at hostels and stuff and you know, just like took a little bit of a break. And then I started at UC Merced, I was fortunate to get a fellowship there. So I was there and I finished up now two years ago and I’ve been in this position. Started my third year, but yeah, basically everything has been dictated by finances and where I want to live and what skills I want to gain. I think science is interesting. If you just like science generally, anything can be interesting. Yeah, there’s so many cool questions, but uh, there’s nothing to me where I’m obsessed like there’s only stuff where I’m like curious I’m like. Oh, I want to know more about that and I really want to figure out that answer. But I can also let it go and be like. Yeah, like if I can’t figure out the answer like that’s fine, I’ll just do something else and I think it’s difficult. If I could make a suggestion to anyone out there who’s in grad school right now or in academia generally you know, just be open. Don’t be too open like have something, but like be open because everyone always would say this when I was at seminars, whatever they’re like. Oh, you know what? What you end up doing is not going to be what you thought you were going to do and like. That’s so true, like I’ve just had such a zigzag path, which I I kind of thought I would anyway. ‘cause like that’s my personality a little bit, and that’s fine. I’m just having fun. I’m enjoying it and so far I’m financially doing. OK enough that I can stay in it. I probably won’t stay in it too much longer if I don’t get some sort of grant or something. I’ll probably switch to something that pays a bit better, but as long as I’m able to do it and my family is OK and stuff l’m going to keep doing it so yeah, that’s where I’ve been and then I finished at UC Merced, quality of systems bio, and I’m here

J: Awesome. Yeah, I also want to emphasize to people there is no rush too ‘cause I. I was one of those like bright eyed, bushy tailed undergrads. That was like I’m gonna apply to a PhD program like why not, you know, but that’s this is what I wanted to do and I know so many friends they were telling me like oh it seems like you have your stuff figured out like I need to do something and I’m like no. You really don’t need to, there’s no rush to do this right? So I guess my next question has to do with the intersectionality of who people are and who they are as scientists, So we talked about being Filipino, So not just on that, but a lot of different things. Why is it important to connect the two? As we pursue science and and just are out and about.

S: Yeah, so I don’t know what you’re interested. I’d be curious to hear what you’re in starting like how you got interested in science, but I think for me, science was kind of an escape, so when I first, I kind of like had a bit of a chaotic upbringing and when I was in the lab, it was like my meditation. It was like like I had this card that someone gave me at 17 ‘cause he trusted me enough a 17 year old. And I could just go in the building like anytime I wanted and it was great. I think a part of me being such a dedicated kind of workaholic at that time too, and maybe still is that it’s just peaceful for me. It’s a nice way to get away from anything else that is on my mind and just focus on my science and do that. Also it was very appealing to me the idea of, OK, it doesn’t really matter what I look like or you know what I come or come from or whatever. Here I can just bring in my thoughts and that’s what people care about and especially, growing up as through like September 11th as a kid and going through that people kind of harassing you for you know something that’s not really in your control or that you don’t understand ‘cause you’re really young. That was really nice and refreshing and then it was funny because I had this very rose tinted glasses view of scientists and I think I still do in a way like this kind of romantic view of scientists being very pure in this way and their integrity. And you know, putting intellect and thoughts and ideas before anything else. And that’s not true at all, because scientists are still people and there’s a history of science and we’re very biased towards certain types of science, namely Western science being the top or being seen as the pinnacle again. You know, I guess. As I said earlier with why people think it’s important then that, then that’s where the money goes, right? So yeah, I think yeah. So so I think as I continued on, and I think most people will agree that as I continued on, you know things would happen, and I would have these experiences that I knew I was different. I knew I was underrepresented in different ways, but things would come up that, at first I would really blame myself, I would immediately be like this is my fault. Or this happened, because I’m not doing it right. And then it happens enough times and then you start to feel this is messed up. And then you start to feel like this is not fair. One example was, and I feel pretty comfortable talking about this. When I was doing my degree on the East Coast, there were two other male grad students in the lab with me and one was already there and I came in, and then I kind of convinced the third one to join our lab who was rotating. I really enjoy science and it’s very therapeutic for me. So I was working a lot and then the PI kind of favored me within the first six months and I don’t agree with that. I don’t think it’s good to favor students, but that is what happened and then the two male grad students didn’t like that and they teamed up. So initially I was friends with the one and you know, kind of neutral with the other one. But that they teamed up because they didn’t like that the PI, and the PI was, it was also, you know the tone of the PI set in the lab, where the the PI would often kind of put us against each other, which created an environment of like paranoia and kind of unhealthy competition and things like that.

J: Toxic

S: Yes, yes. And so that I think also. They’re really frustrated me and I got really depressed. I got really depressed. I got really down and it was for the first time since doing research. At that time I think I was like 22 because I went directly into that program. So from being 17 and 22, that was the first time where I did not want to go to lab. I would make excuses to not go because I just didn’t want to deal with that kind of, basically I guess bullying, and like harassment from my peers or even my PI. My PI was kind of a bully to all of us and you know, now I can see that for what that is, but at the time you know I was very hard on myself, I’m a failure. And I’m not fitting in, I’m not getting along and and really, that other grad student that was there, the international Japanese, like he was kind of at the end of his career or his doctorate and he didn’t really care. He’s just like I don’t know, if he wasn’t there, I think it would have been a little bit harder, but he was really helpful whenever he would be around. He wasn’t there a lot of time, but when he would be around, he’d just be like, oh, you shouldn’t care about these things, and he was really a helpful person. But anyways, just to say that. Uh, when it comes with, why this is important? What are our backgrounds and why it’s important is, I think that really having that experience earlier was definitely not a fun experience. And you know, it’s that, I think really weighs heavily. I think it weighs maybe the most heavily so I’ve had even some more negative experiences since then, but I think that one weighs the heaviest in my mind. Just because it was the first one and I had the most shocked with that, but I think because that happened, because I stayed. I can tell my own growth as a person. I really have tried to become more and more of a person that I really don’t want to be this way, like I really want to be someone that’s helpful for others and approachable even if I seem, I think maybe in some circles people might view me as like did see, or I don’t really know what I’m talking about. Or, you know, sometimes I ask kind of naive questions, but I think it’s better to give you that way, than someone who’s not approachable. So at least I know people feel comfortable talking to me, comfortable approaching me and I prefer that than the opposite because I feel like that’s very important as a scientist and then going back to why our backgrounds matter, I think this all really taught me that, I was using science as an escape, but and maybe this is getting too deep and existential but like we can’t escape ourselves. You know like we are who we are. You know, we we talked a lot about being objective and that the pinnacle of being a good scientist is finding the objective truth, but that doesn’t exist because we’re humans. We are inherently subjective and we see this and everything we do. So then the follow up is well. What’s the point then? Why should we do anything? It’s like, well, no. There is a point, because the more we can acknowledge the subjective aspects, the more we can actually attain the objective. And so if we ignore these aspects like you know that you’re Filipino, that I’m South Asian or someone else. If we ignore these and we ignore these contexts, we are hurting ourselves and our ability to conduct good research. And we’re also ignoring the strengths and perspectives we offer from our own, just like you collaborate with people that are different disciplines, it’s the same concept. You know you collaborate with people who are different from you because they have a different way of seeing something and they’re going to have something valuable to offer. But we don’t see it that way, so it’s kind of ironic like we value biodiversity. We value interdisciplinary cooperation. Like why don’t we value diversity amongst people this is just 1 + 1 = 2 right? But it’s also, I think we see that because we’re kind of coming in from the outside, so I think that the more and more you have people and I’ve learned a lot of stuff too like one thing I’m learning a lot more about is my ableism and I can say that the same PI where, I was working for in the East Coast, at that time it was 2013 or so, and one of my friends was recently diagnosed with MS and they also were in research and so I remember talking with them. They were on the other side of the country and I remember talking with them and you know, so, slowly they were losing their mobility and they were trying to figure out how to do lab work while that was happening and I remember talking with my PI about it, kind of, for mentorship advice ,and, well, you know if that’s a problem like they just can’t do lab work. And I just remember things like WHAT? They can’t do lab work? And that really stuck in my mind, but I didn’t really have the words for having that kind of conversation. I think it’s fantastic that right now there’s a lot more conversation on you know disability in STEM and that representation because it doesn’t matter. There is definitely a lot of ableism and field work and what lab work and that shouldn’t be the case. You have, like Stephen Hawking’s right, that’s a great example of why it’s important to have people that have different backgrounds. So that’s something I’m thinking about too. So I feel like in the same way that I have learned that I have things that I can offer, that I previously thought were, like maybe weaknesses or negative aspects of myself because they weren’t really represented. I’m also seeing how I benefit from my own privileges too and learning. I think as scientists, our goal is that we are always learning, and it can feel overwhelming. But, hopefully we’re all interested in the curious aspect. Otherwise, like why are we here.

J: Yeah, you’re a very impressive person. I love that everything, everything about that. In my head I’m just snapping.

S: I am not the one making a podcast, so that’s pretty good.

J: It’s always about, about the people I interview, that’s why I let them do the work. But yeah, I guess I’m now wondering like how did you get through all this, right? ‘Cause you know these experiences, I’m sorry that you went through them, but I just wanna know, how did you get through them? A lot of people talk about, finding their communities, their support systems. Did you have any support going through this? What were your support systems like growing up and and how integral has these been for you? How did you find your support systems? Or was it just you? You know being a bad thing like I got it?

S: No, that’s a great question, and that’s also something where it’s funny ‘cause you know, like you, you contact me through Twitter and you can see that like maybe a prolific tweeter you could say. I think I got a twitter in like 2014 or something ‘cause I was working as a tech for a new PI, and he’s like oh, you gotta get this. Not just I don’t know what this is about. Yeah yeah I didn’t use it for like 2 years. I just didn’t even touch it, so it’s funny because I feel like everyone’s like Oh yeah so it’s like they have this idea of what I do, or what I had because it’s my quote unquote online presence or whatever. But I think at some point I just stopped caring and I was like yeah, whatever like yeah, you know, for better or for worse I’ve that’s why I just kind of say whatever and I try to use it as something to help me learn and to learn from others and also just to I don’t know, be ridiculous. But I think you know, like I said, like I, I really struggled to make friends when I was younger. One because of just like the context of being Muslim American in Utah. And the other thing being that because of that, I think I just really struggled, I didn’t trust people and I still, I think, you know, we all have trust issues,to some degree. But I, I just had a lot of trust issues and so I was very closed and I actually. Uh, I had a really bad anxiety attacks and then when I was, I think it’s like my first year my freshman year of college and I would get such bad anxiety attacks I would just throw up, or I would just not be able to do, and nobody knew, literally not even, I had a roommate where we live in the same room and I would hide it from her, like, I like go in the bathroom like I was like. Nobody can know my family didn’t, like know. And now, you know, as someone who has anxiety and depression I can just openly say like think of somebody that’s never experienced anxiety or depression. That person does not exist. If they exist, please introduce me to them. Yeah, I don’t think that person is real. I think it’s, you know, it’s a part of life right? Like at some point or another people will experience, and of course it’s a spectrum. Like people have different severities and that should be respected. But I think people, everyone has something that they are going through that you don’t know about. So there are some things that you know are very apparent that you can see visibly see and then nearly OK that person has going through this for this person is privileged in that way. Whatever, but there are other things that are unseen that we just don’t know about, and, and people have varying comfort levels of how much they’re going to share about that. And I think maybe my queerness, too, is an example of that, where I basically outed myself as a result of a friend being mislabeled as cis and white, a cis white male who is actually multiracial and bi and they were really upset about it because this stranger more or less was critiquing them being like, oh you don’t know anything about this you’re just another cis white male blah blah, and they were complaining they were like, how dare they, they don’t know me at all that’s my life and they were really upset about it, and I was like well I’m just gonna out myself because what does that even look like? ‘cause I’ve had people say to me, you know, whenever I am like Oh yeah I’m queer, they’re like what does that mean, they’ll be like well you don’t look queer, but it’s like why does this should not have like an aesthetic you know? I think that’s then, that gets into the whole other stuff of you know how Filipino argue or you’re not Filipino enough, or you’re not American, and it’s just like who’s making these rules. Right?

J: Right

S: Um, getting back to the original thing of how to get through these, I think we have to remember that. So like I said, I really was very closed about a lot of things that I was quite antisocial, and I kind of reached a point where I realized it was not good for me, and I realized that I needed to start being open, even though it’s really uncomfortable. Still very uncomfortable, surely that’s why I do stuff like this. And it’s weird because even doing these types of interviews, It’s just like weird stuff like hear about how awesome I am. yay. Egoism, you know, but hopefully someone hears it and it’s helpful for them and that’s awesome. Like whatever I say or like, you know, here’s I said a lot of things that is crap like that’s fine. But if, what even one person hears is like, oh, that’s a helpful thing. I’m think about that later and then that’s that’s useful. That’s that is the reason to, you know, give my time to do that kind of stuff and so yeah, I think. Something that I never really realized before that I think about a lot now is, life is full of hills and valleys. And you can’t always be on top. And you can’t always be on the bottom like you. It’s always a fluctuation. It’s a little, you know, cosine wave or whatever and, you know, that’s, that’s just how it is. And there are some days like actually last week I was kind of having a rough week and I was just feeling kind of sad for whatever reason like, you know, it’s like I am in a beautiful place, I am very lucky I love my job. Everyone I work with is awesome. This is my third year now and like no complaints which is unheard of right? And I love everything, I’m very fortunate you know. Like my family, my parents have health problems, but they’re all they’re here, like I’m very lucky in many ways. And for whatever reason I was just feeling kind of low last week. I was feeling so impostor syndrome. I was feeling like we’re going to figure this out, you know. And like that’s normal. Even people I know that are established in their careers. And like, I’m, you know, considered more established. I have my degree now. I’m doing alright, you know, there’s always something and I don’t know one person who is doing well, like from a third person perspective that you know that person is doing great and you talk to them and they open up and there’s a whole lot of stuff that they are worried about too. So I think normalizing these things, and and I think that’s what’s really gotten me through. It’s just when I started talking to people when I had that really rough time, when I was doing my masters, I talked to two people that were kind of mentors to me and I felt kind of awkward doing it, but I just asked them for help and and they got on the phone with me independently and talk with me and. And they basically convinced me ‘cause I was going to drop out. I’m just going to leave like basically disappear and not come back. That was what I wanted to do, and they were like don’t do that because then you have put in time and what did you get out of it? And that person doesn’t care if you leave they’re still going to get their research or whatever, but at least finish because that degree is for you, you are there and then you can have that and nobody can take that away from you after, and so them telling me that and telling me their own experiences. I think really helped me to normalize that this is something that happens, is part of life. It’s OK, it’s OK to have things be unfair. It’s normal, there’s maybe some things are less fair, seem more unfair at certain times than others, but I think at the end we all are abiding by the chemical. The chemistry laws of equilibrium. So it’s always a tradeoff and karma etc. So I think that’s that’s really helped me to get through. And just remembering that there’s some funny, reel I was watching the other day where this person was joking about these two seaguls on the beach, and they’re like oh are they together? Are they breaking up are they in a fight and just take a little anthropomorphized commentary on the seagulls and they’re like shattered them like remember the good times, you know? don’t break up and so I think You have to think about, just yeah just like a funny anecdote, but you have to think about the moments that are good, and you have to remember that this moment is happening too. It’s OK, It’s important to sit in that moment and that, if you don’t have those bad experiences, if you don’t have those low moments, then you can’t really appreciate the good as much. So I think it’s important to also, in a way, enjoy the bad too. Not like, don’t like, enjoy it, but like appreciate it. Yeah, so that’s that’s how I’ve gone through stuff and. Uhm, yeah, that’s what I would say.

J: Yeah, yeah, I really admire your vulnerability. I feel like the power of vulnerability is really underestimated. Nowadays, like it’s, it’s pretty wild, but I wanted to ask. We are having this conversation but structurally, like institutes of higher education can also do a better job. So how do you think they can be better? How can institutes of higher education be more inclusive and, and really help us, like what are your thoughts on that? ‘cause I know at this point that you were really critical of it, so I’m curious to see what what you had in mind.

S: That’s a great question. Um, so.

J: It might take an hour long, but.

S: So so I would say, and this is, this goes back to like, this is talking about like why is anyone anyway right? So like yeah I I would say in all the negative experiences I’ve had with people in academia or otherwise, it’s mostly rooted in something that they are struggling with themselves, so they’re projecting in some way, right? It’s very hard to take time to reflect and be healthy. It it’s a lot of work. Lot of effort, it’s constant effort. It never stops and the person that I had to really, the one that it kind of shocked me. Like I said I’ve had other negative experiences and positive experiences since that time, but the one we’re kind of shocked me. They were one of the first females to be hired in that department and that was very inspiring to me, to work for somebody like that. And I I respect that person even though I had a really negative experience with them. I respect what that person had to go through to get there. But I am very sad by the fact that they. Yeah, they basically kind of were a bully and they were definitely, they were known to be harder towards non males than males even though they themselves are female. And I, I also would experienced that working with them, and so that’s something. And there’s there’s all sorts of literature on this stuff too, like internal sexism and things like that, and I think that I’ve also had to work on that too, you know, not viewing fem qualities or characteristics as less than masculine characteristics like, for example; one thing we know is that many women in science tend to speak deeper because it’s like typed being more masculine, and that’s going to be taken more seriously, anyway, so So what could we do to change these things? I think. One thing I’ve learned as I get more and more senior is that there is no incentive for tenured faculty to gain professional development training in their process of getting tenure. And so, the people that I’ve had really positive experience with have taken that time on their own to take a leadership training course or take a communications course or conflict management course. But they don’t get any pat on the back for that. They just do it themselves. And when you think about it, when you are a PI, you are head of a lab or your manager of anything, you know, you’re in charge of a lab and you’re basically mini CEO, you’re running a business. And I don’t think any of us really go into science thinking that way, like I think all of us were like. We’re just going to play around with test tubes all day, but we don’t think about, you know, you don’t really realize how much writing is involved, how much administrative work is involved until you’re already there? You’re kind of thrown into the trenches, so I have a lot of sympathy, even though I would have like these negative experiences with people and I’m sure people have had negative experiences with me. I have a lot of sympathy because it’s really hard to step outside of that, if you don’t, If you’re not really being trained in that. So we’ve been trained to be scientists, but then we’re kind of thrown into this managerial position. And then that’s what we end up doing for 30 plus years. So I think a big thing that people could do to improve is to make it a part of the tenure track where people are required to take some sort of regular management training, leadership training, etc. And also really get immersed in what that means in terms of responsibility. Because I think also people not to, not to be dismissive at anyone, but I think people underestimate just how much that ends up being part of their job because they’re so focused on the science, which is great. We have these really, really great experts in science, but then that informal mentorship training, they kind of think like, oh, that’s. Well, it’s going to be like the professor, and that’s not at least from what I know. That’s not what it’s like, and from talking to people, and I think even people with the best intentions end up succumbing to projecting negative things that they themselves have experienced, because that support isn’t in the infrastructure for them. And then you know something happens. They’re the one liable, so the university isn’t the one liable, it’s the professor, so there’s a lot of stress and pressure where the professors are being pulled. I think in multiple directions, and I think that also results in this really high turnover and grad students and undergrads and postdocs and people leaving academia because there’s not that support there in the infrastructure.

J: Yeah, that’s really interesting. Yeah, and I know, I know you have to leave in like 12 minutes so I’m just gonna rapid fire some fun questions at you if that’s OK.

S: Yes alright

J: Are you ready? What is your favorite song right now and why? Like you’re, you’re cruising down cruising around San Diego.

S: I really like this, well, I don’t know how much people know about the 90s, but there’s a song called Better Off Alone. I forget the original artists, but like Purity Ring has a cover of it, I could listen to that a lot. I’ll like quickly Google the original. So what is his original artist of this song? It’s like, it’s the same group as like Sandstorm. I really haven’t listened to that a lot. Alice Deejay’s I think is who sings it. But yeah, I don’t know. I’ve just been like in uh, like bad EDM pop 90s yeah lately. J: Does it never change? That’s so weird. How I, I yeah I’m not saying you’re old I just I know those bands I know those. What is your favorite thing to do outside of science?

S: Uh, I like tidepooling. I like going on hikes. I am trying to get into surfing. It’s really hard. I mean I have a surfboard. I probably will not call myself a surfer. I used to do skateboarding a lot too, when I was like in my late teens early 20s and I’m 30 now and I started doing it again this past couple of months and it’s like also really hard. I was like, oh I’m like more fragile now too. So I’m like yeah this 30 year old, in the skate park but it’s like a great workout. It’s like so good for your core like you do it for an hour and it’s like fun. And then you’re like done with that. I’m like this is better than the gym. But now I’m like, am I that weird old person? Like in SoCal, everyone does it. So it’s like…

J: Yeah yeah, yeah. I miss Socal so much like it’s so much different than North Carolina yeah yeah, yeah, I really do miss it. What is your favorite food or I guess? What is your favorite food place to eat, hang out and why?

S: I really love Lestat’s coffee. It’s like a few places like that in San Diego

J: La Jolla specifically?

S: There are like three of them, I think there’s a better few locations. I also really love, um, Oscar’s seafood. It’s like Mexican and it’s like seafood tacos, it’s ike smoked fish taco and stuff. I also really like, there’s a lot of good Ethiopian places here. Also in the Bay Area, Ramen, Poke, Korean barbecue.

J: Everything is in SoCal. Out here, like man, what is out here? I don’t even know.

S: Well, yeah yeah, you gotta start something that’s just, another side hustle.

J: I guess.

S: The Booba I do really like

J: Yeah, yeah, so I, I know we were on a time crunch but I, I do wanna thank you again for everything. It feels really nice having these conversations again. ‘cause I I feel like I’m kind of shaking the rust off right now. Just ‘cause this PhD program is like. Oh my gosh, this stuff so hard.

S: You’re doing great though, it sounds like you seem pretty busy, but hopefully you’re getting some time for some fun too.

J: Yeah, I count this as fun. Yeah, yeah, just hearing your thoughts and everything. It’s really inspiring